wondering...WEATHER... I ever had a chance???

[SMJmodeler]

Guys: After leaving Nationals which concluded with the 2-1/2 hour awards ceremony, my confusion about judging has reached an ALL TIME high! The tanks were divided into three groups (forgive me if they are not exactly right) but basically they were: light/medium tanks, German heavy tanks(I will post all three winners here soon) and Russian tanks.

While pre-viewing the light medium group, which my Stug III was in, I ACTUALLY felt I had a chance for an award, I was stoked!!! Then at the awards the winners were shown via powerpoint presentation and I did not recognize ANY of them…I thought, is this my group? Sure enough, when the ceremony concluded, the contest room opened, the medals were sitting next to the winners and that WAS my group. Without taking away from the success of the ones chosen…I am truly baffled. The builds were really good but VERY “clean”…what a surprise.

There are already a TON of categories, but I’m wondering if IPMS has ever considered separating “clean/light weathered” and “heavy weathered” groupings, especially at Nationals. I think I will never have a chance if they don’t. I feel that the doog and disatermaster (two of the finest weatherheads) would be “bumped” too. The reason I say so, is that I think the judges knock out the heavy weathered builds because they can’t “see” the work below. I am NOT saying my work is the caliber with the doog or disastermaster and you may be thinking, SMJ your work just isn’t that good, and on my other entries (Krupp, SU-122, Jimmy) I would agree, but my Stug in question took a “Best of Show” last year. Here are some pic’s:

I wonder if the judges REALLY take into consideration how hard it is to weather a build correctly and convincingly. I get the feeling that unless you add a ton of AM goodies and PE the build just are considered “worthy”.

Please give me your thoughts…

[RBaer]

Based on what I experienced at Squadron Scalefest a while ago, I truly see your point. Not to say that I feel I should have placed, but what DID place had loads of AM and was “clean”. Hmmm…but I didn’t go to “place”, I went to “display” even though I entered. And in my case, quite frankly I had build errors that took me out of contention.

[usmc1371]

Maybe the judges considered those tanks over-weathered and not realistic? I think it takes a lot of talent to make a piece of armor look highly weathered. But, I also think that the “art of weathering” especially chipping effects, has gone beyond realism in most cases.

-Jesse

[Bish]

If the model is free standing than fair enough, it should be clean as you are just showing the vehicle. But if it is a dio, then the vehicle should be weathered to the conditions it is in, and in some cases that could be to totally obscure the paint and markings. In which case all that should be taken into account. In my veiw, we are not trying to create a peace of art which looks pretty, we are trying to replcate real events.

I wounder if these judges have ever seen a real AFV in the field. As a Warrior driver, i was often amazed at the places mud could reach, i’ve often sprayed my crew with it and a warrior is about 10 feet tall. So to have an AFV covered in the it is not out of the question if the surroundings warrant it.

Perhaps they should put models into free standing and dios, where where a vehicle weathered to its surroundings is taken into account.

If your StuG is an example of something that doesn’t come close to winning, i wouldn’t even consider entering one of my own.

[ajlafleche]

I know itt’s a real bummer to be skunked with something you’re really proud of, especially having done well with it before.

This is the difficulty of 1-2-3 awards (and why I was one of the advocates in Phoenix for exploring gold-silver-bronze “open” judging)…only 3 kits get to take home an award in each class. I wasn’t there and don’t know what else won. That’s a BIG consideration…what else was in your class.

Looking at it quickly and based on discussions here, what may have hurt was the blackened muzzle. From what I’ve read, it shouldn’t be black like that from modern powder. Taking several more looks, I’m wondering about that big sooty mark on the engine deck and how it got there? I’m not sure, but in the picture of the rear of the StuG, it looks like the fender is a bit askew on the left of the tank. On the right side, the edge runs parallel with the tops of the track links, but on the other side, it seems to dip a bit on the outer edge.

In the right side/front picture, it looks like the second to the last road wheel might be higher than the rest, possibly even floating above the tracks. Take a straight edge and check that.

If either of these last two comments is correct, these could have knocked you out of contention.

As was mentioned by USMC above, the judges may have simply though this was over the top in weathering for an active duty vehicle.

In 2004, the scratchbuilt 1/16 T-55 below built by Talal Chouman took best weathering at the Nationals in Phoenix. This may give you an idea of what judges look for in weathering.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

Looks like a diorama to me… Shouldn’t have been in the same category as display-models…

[the_doog]

Well, there you go Steve–the pitfalls and potential “ego minefileds” that you bravely tread when you enter any model contest. It’s simply the chance you take.

The bottom line is that judges are human, and possess the same preferences, peculiarities, and unpredicatable, indefensible prejudces and bias’s as any one person here. There are the “Clean Beans” and the “Weatherheads” (no perjorative connotations intended, y’all!) If you’ve ebntered enough contests, you will inevitably attend one where you leave feeling “slighted”!

I had my Best-of-Show-winning dio “SPOOKED” (the one that appeared in Jan 08’s FSM article) “beaten” by a dio that plainly, unquestionably was below par at a different contest. I was hearing it from people even 6 months later. At the same show, an amazing “expolded” fighter jet was also poorly judged. Some shows have more perceived “injustices”, some have less.

At the Syracuse National’s, I took a “Best of SHow” with my “Rust Bunnies” dio. But when thay called the Diorama’s category before that, I didn’t even place. The judge later told me it was so people would feel that they had “spread around the wealth” a little. ANd I completely understood.

On other contests, I’ve been beaten by models where I felt they didn’t compete with mine–but also realized that I have a very identifiable style,and that I had also won three other categories of Armor, so maybe the judges knew my models and were doing the same? It’s reallly an ego-check; you have to be able to take the good with the bad!

I’ve judged shows too, and I can tell you that there are “quirky” judges who I caused me to think "Really?!" at some of their observations. I too, have missed obvious errors right here on this site; nobody’s perfect!

I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t place. I would have thought you would have for sure? However, you did choose to compete in “the Big Time”; ie, the Nationals. Not an easy field to be sure; you said it yourself. Don’t let it discourage you.

I do, however, think it woud be an interesting sub-category; that of “Weathered” vs “Clean”–However, then you would also have to sub-categorize ALL the categories as such, and have more trophies, and it would be a nightmare!

[Anonymous]

I think doog hit the nail on the proverbial head…the “Nats” are the BIG Leagues to be sure–the World Series of plastic modeling…Having said that, and been in a few myself (and judged), I feel as though your weathering may be a bit “extreme” for most mainstream modelers…that isn’t a qualitative judgement, just an opinion…I think your work is very good, but having been around contests and judging and modelers most of my life I do think your work falls in the “highly weathered” category (again, that isn’t a bad or good thing)…Like most things in life, I have found that mainstream judging tends to go for “middle of the road” when it comes to weathering, in general…Good, bad or ugly, I think that’s just the way it is…

I have entered things I thought would never get a second look take first, or BOS, and things I thought were GREAT not even get an honorable mention…I have probably entered more aircraft than armor in contests and done very well…and my a/c are even cleaner than my armor!!!

[chris_hall]

If the model is free standing than fair enough, it should be clean as you are just showing the vehicle. But if it is a dio, then the vehicle should be weathered to the conditions it is in, and in some cases that could be to totally obscure the paint and markings. In which case all that should be taken into account. In my veiw, we are not trying to create a peace of art which looks pretty, we are trying to replcate real events.

I

NO - IPMS judges are specifically instructed not to take scale accuracy into consideration when awarding points. It’s pretty much all down to artistic impression, and sadly, adding a ton of AM and an exaggerated paint job does seem to influence them. Perhaps less so than a few years ago, but its still there.

It’s understandable, I suppose, because to judge scale accuracy, you’ve got to have an expert level of knowedge of the subject of the model, which it would be unreasonable to expect a judge to have, while to be able to judge artistic merit, you would need only to be a highly skilled and experienced modeller, which it would not be unreasonable to expect a judge to be.

If you’re unhappy about how adding AM can influence judges, then simply enter only OOB categories - and make sure you choose a Dragon uber-kit as your starting point - ideally one with extra figuers and accesories included!

Also, judges are not supposed to take into account the amount of effort you’ve put in your model. They do not award extra points if you start from a 1960s Airfix 1/72 Wellington, when you could have started from the 21st Century MPM job. They judge only on results. There’s no handicapping system.

Those are the rules of the game, and if you don’t like it, don’t enter the competitions. Or work within the Society to change things (some chance!) In several shows I’ve attended in the last year or so, the standard of modelling away from the competition tables has been higher than that in the competition. Perhaps, if that continues to be the case, the IPMS will eventually get the message. Or maybe the judges are too busy judging to inspect the models on non-competition tables?

Speaking personally, I think that you’ve probably gone a bit too far n weathering your model, to the point where it started to compromise artistic merit (more is not necesarily better) and that may not have helped. Also, the standard of modelling shown on the diorama base does not seem as high as that of the model itself, (clean snow, no track marks, leaves on the (not especially realistic) birch trees in the middle of winter, among other things)and that may have harmed the overall impression that the model made on the judges.

Cheers,

Chris.

[ajlafleche]

Also, the standard of modelling shown on the diorama base does not seem as high as that of the model itself, (clean snow, no track marks, leaves on the (not especially realistic) birch trees in the middle of winter, among other things)and that may have harmed the overall impression that the model made on the judges.

Cheers,

Chris.

From what the OP said, this was not enterred as a dio, but as a single armor kit. While the rules SAY any figure outside the model turns it into a dio, the reallity is the rule is not aggressively enforced. (Scanning throughthe pics at IPMS/USA, one can see how loosely this is enforced!) If the figures are primarily there to give scale and the scene has little or no action, the model is generally allowed to stay in the armor category. Judges are (ior should be) specifically told to ignore the figures and groundwork. Granted, you can’t “Unsee” groundwork, good or bad, but you should not give aor take any credit, and theoretically and ideally, the vehicle should place the same if it’s on a landscaped base, a varnished plaque or the banquet paper on the table.

[Foster7155]

My personal view is the amount or degree of weathering on your build had little, if anything, to do with how it placed in the contest. This is based not only on my own experience as both a model builder/entrant, but also as an IPMS judge. Additionally, we have been fortunate to have not one, but two long-time IPMS armor judges give presentations to our local armor club.

IPMS judging is generally based on finding fault…that’s just the way it is. ANY flaw, no matter how minor, will easily knock out an otherwise great build from top 5 or top 10 final cuts. This is no more true than at the National level, where competition is extremely tight. While most recreational modelers tend to consider things like “degree of difficulty”, “use of aftermarket accessories”, and “extreme or difficult weathering” to be items which should give a model a leg up on the competition, in fact, the exact opposite is true at an IPMS contest. Every time a modeler adds something new to a basic model, they run the risk of making one additional minor mistake the basic modeler didn’t have to worry about. This is the primary reason why I greatly prefer the AMPS system of judging - which rewards risk-taking, even with minor errors.

IPMS judging has always been focused on the basics - straight alignment, no seams, no pin marks, perfect markings, no glue marks, uniform finish, etc. If an OOTB build has absolutely NO flaws whatsoever in the eyes of the judges, it will nearly always beat out the exact same model, cut in half, with a scratch-build interior and PE enhancements, if that model has even ONE observable error - particularly in one of the “basic” areas mentioned above. I personally don’t like this fact, but it’s the way IPMS has always instructed judges to evaluate models.

Heavily weathered armor models can win IPMS National awards and have in the past. They just have to be as close to perfect as possible and be better than the other models on the table that particular day.

[redleg12]

To weather or not to weather!!!

As I read through this thread I feel the pain. At one time I showed dogs and though they were to be judged to a standard…it was what the judge felt that day.

I have said this before in other threads but this is why I feel the AMPS method of compition and judging is far superior to IPMS. I know, IPMS is bigger, etc, etc. BUT…don’t comment or say you don’t understand their style of judging uless you have gone to their site and read through their competition rules

www.amps-armor.org

With AMPS you compete against yourself. Your model is judged on its own merits and not how it looks next to someone else.

There are some IPMS shows which are trying this method of judging. It would be nice if they would meet somewhere and make a change.

Otherwise, you will run into the “political beauty contest judging” from time to time.

If the Olympics can change their judging…so could IPMS…

I hear WAY too much of this and is the reason I try not to go to IPMS events. The results could be meaningless

OK…Now that I have everyone stirred up, check the AMPS rules and we could discuss from there

Rounds Complete!!

[disastermaster]

Guys: After leaving Nationals which concluded with the 2-1/2 hour awards ceremony, my confusion about judging has reached an ALL TIME high! The tanks were divided into three groups (forgive me if they are not exactly right) but basically they were: light/medium tanks, German heavy tanks(I will post all three winners here soon) and Russian tanks.

While pre-viewing the light medium group, which my Stug III was in, I ACTUALLY felt I had a chance for an award, I was stoked!!! Then at the awards the winners were shown via powerpoint presentation and I did not recognize ANY of them…I thought, is this my group? Sure enough, when the ceremony concluded, the contest room opened, the medals were sitting next to the winners and that WAS my group. Without taking away from the success of the ones chosen…I am truly baffled. The builds were really good but VERY “clean”…what a surprise.

There are already a TON of categories, but I’m wondering if IPMS has ever considered separating “clean/light weathered” and “heavy weathered” groupings, especially at Nationals. I think I will never have a chance if they don’t. I feel that the doog and disatermaster (two of the finest weatherheads) would be “bumped” too. The reason I say so, is that I think the judges knock out the heavy weathered builds because they can’t “see” the work below. I am NOT saying my work is the caliber with the doog or disastermaster and you may be thinking, SMJ your work just isn’t that good, and on my other entries (Krupp, SU-122, Jimmy) I would agree, but my Stug in question took a “Best of Show” last year.

I wonder if the judges REALLY take into consideration how hard it is to weather a build correctly and convincingly. I get the feeling that unless you add a ton of AM goodies and PE the build just are considered “worthy”.

Please give me your thoughts…

---

!http://th151.photobucket.com/albums/s143/spectrumAU/Emoticons/th_tapfoot.gifOOOOHHH Steve, you done went and stepped in !http://th150.photobucket.com/albums/s113/Catho_Balan/Emoticons/th_shit.gifnow.

Thoughts?.. hmmmm… !http://th229.photobucket.com/albums/ee309/3534538/Smileys/th_Smiley_write-a-letter.gifHere’s a chapter.

Haven’t been to a National, but here on the local level … this has been “my” experience, no kidding.

… Maybe you’ll feel better after reading this.

So it’s happened to you and to me and it’ll happen to both of us again just as it has to others. At one contest you get nothing and at the next one you really clean house and/or get Best of Show.

!http://th150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/ShareMyPage/SMILEYS/th_smiley_nuts.gifReally kinda fickle ain’t it?

Well, remember the M20 (panzerbait) I did here a short while back? I took it to a local IPMS event to see how it would do. Not a single comment on the snowchains by the way…

Here’s the sad, sad story. For the category “armor softskin 1/35”, I didn’t get first… or second… or third…!http://th214.photobucket.com/albums/cc149/trixiko/Smileys/th_36_1_44.gif or a dishonorable mention…or even really much of a look by the judges.

Now, my son has ears like some kind of a !http://th91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/Startrekfanatic/Smileys/th_Superman.gifsuperhero. He was over near the three stooges and overheard the conversation… went something like this…

“hey dood, what’s dis”?

“That’s an M8 or an M20, what’s it say on the registration”?

“Duhh, sez M20”.

“That thing’s paint job reeelly looks baddd”.

“Yeah, he’s probably someone new learning how to weather”.

“Yah, I tink so too… look insida it!”

“It jis don’t even look real inside at all… yich!”

“Hey guys, come over here and look at this ‘lil toy Staghound…It’s really hot, pretty and oooooh just so little ‘n cute… a new release too, I jus’ wanna’ hug it an kiss it an make it all mine!”

"Ohh my Gawwd, it’s so clean 'n priddy… such pretty black tires…

!http://th175.photobucket.com/albums/w140/erichighsmith/Smileys/th_kneelsunny.gifa sure winner!!"

(Okaaaa, so I am getting a little carried away here…)

And so it was written, it got first place. Toy story wins. Real pros here.

Where’s dat judge… ?

Oh well, I still had my Panzer IV and T34, right. Unh Uh, nope.

Pretty tanks win the day. Got nothing there either.

I wish I knew in advance it was going to be a toymakers convention and I wouldn’t have blown $40 worth of gas just to get insulted by three blind toads.

I’ve been a ipms judge lots of times and almost (did all the flyers, artwork, finances, awards and location arrangements) singlehandedly put on three shows for our club. I have attended contests where the judges were people who knew nothing of the subject (no kiddin’…duh, what’s photo-itch?) and they were there just out of curiosity. I know it for a fact because I had “coincidentally” spoke with a few of them at the begining of the event. They were picked because they were asked, and they were asked because there was a shortage of warm bodies to do the judging.

!http://smileys.linda-faye.com/images/amed003.gif

“Judges are like a box of candy, !http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/th_FartingSmiley.gifya never know what yer gonna git”

This portion of the “judges” aren’t even members of IPMS. I really think it should be a requirement to be an active card carrying ipms member to qualify to judge “any” work. At least it would insure that they had “some” knowledge of what’s going on.

I view the people of this forum as the ultimate judging authority, card or not. They qualify by the quality of their builds.

Anyway, as you do this long enough and get positive responses on this forum, you begin to develop a confidence in your ability to do quality work. Without meaning to sound arrogant at all, I feel that I do ok so I don’t need those contest

passing judgement on me.

Sure I was ticked, but really, down deep I didn’t feel like a loser; however I was irritated at the ignorance or lack of understanding that the depiction of a model is not a movie____… it is a moment in time… a three dimensional snapshot and not the way something looks constantly for all eternity.

For every subject you have a picture of, there are probably hundreds that you’ll never find a picture of, so it makes it difficult to say that this (with exceptions) or that ever/never happened.

I’ll say this for sure. Don’t let this contest outcome discourage you. Your work is good stuff in my book and you can be sure your entries have motivated many people who attended that event… and in the end, that is the very best reward of all.

Now, back to work…

DISASTERMASTER

[usmc1371]

Isn’t it funny how people who win never complain about the judging?

[Panther_F]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and certainly it isn’t the end of the world either.

[redleg12]

Isn’t it funny how people who win never complain about the judging?

Looking at the list of people here who have commented, I think we have all won…and lost. Sometimes when we lose you wonder. That’s the problem I feel with the IPMS system, exactly what Disastermaster discussed. It’s one of the reasons I like the AMPS system better. Most people who don’t like it either don’t know it or only have the yearning to say they beat everyone else.

This is not a sport…it’s a hobby and art. Models should be judged on their own merit.

OK…I’ll get off the soapbox

Rounds Complete!!

[usmc1371]

Isn’t it funny how people who win never complain about the judging?

Models should be judged on their own merit.

I strongly disagree. If you don’t want to compete against others, then why enter a competition?

[ajlafleche]

Some thoughts on Disastermaster’s post.

I disagree taht you need to know the prototype to judge. You need to know modeling. Most cuts I make when judging are on the basics…alignment, seam work, paint application, decals (silvered or glossy on a flat surface), etc. In my 25 years of judging, local, IPMS, non-IPMS, Regional, national (once) and AMPS, it’s been my consistent experience that new, unexperiecned judges are always teamed with more seasoned guys. Since we look at basics first, fresh eyes are always good.

Unfortunately, too many knowlegeable poeple opt to hang out at the vendors or go out to lunch when judging starts. Having Buffalo shrimp at Hooters is a lot less stressful than deciding which of two great (or horrible) models will take first place.

The nationals brings out more builders but really is not that different from a local event. The only criteria for entering is being up to date on your IPMS/USA dues. (Doesn’t mean I’m not proud of the awards I’ve taken there, however.)

This site is not a good training ground for competition. It has an online reputation as a sunshine club. Model Maniac is about the only poster who gets a really good critiquing when he posts. There are way too many atta-boy posts (Yeah, they feel good, but they teach very little.) I’m also seeing it evolve into a uber weathering haven, note the reposnses to the M20 of a couple days ago. Some suggested it really was marginal because it didn’t look like the last survivor of a mud bog competition.

Anyway, no offense inentended for anyone and this, so far, has been a very good discussoin, IMHO.

[panzerguy]

Sorry to hear you got skunked SMJ. I will be curious to see how your stug does at the AMPS show.

I to do not like to hear over the PA at a show…“Ahhh people were kinda short on judges so if any one is interested in being a judge…”

[disastermaster]

Unfortunately, too many knowlegeable people opt to hang out at the vendors or go out to lunch when judging starts. Having Buffalo shrimp at Hooters is a lot less stressful than deciding which of two great (or horrible) models will take first place.