That’s why I think contests are not for everyone. You need to learn how to lose first, before you learn how to win.
Wow very interesting topic you guys, great conversation. I found it very informative, as I’ve never been to a competition before.
To add my 2 cents,
Sorry to hear about your StuG not placing, personally, I think it looks great(sunshine club style comment or not I really do think it looks great). Since I’ve started modelling I’ve always been one for heavy weathering for two reasons. One, I like the way it looks and two, I get a ton of practice out of it.
The fact that the judges determine winners by discerning who has more skill in putting something together is a little off to me, not that I totally disagree with it, but I think much more consideration should be given to the weathering and paint job than just the construction. IMHO one single flaw should not be enough to knock someones model out of a competition if it has a wonderful and obviously skilled paint job/weathering job, with the only exception being a dead-lock 1 on 1 competition between two models where both are great and it comes down to tiny things like one missing bolt or something(rivet counters, freaking rivet counters…)
As for this site being a sunshine club, sure it is, but who cares? This is where I started posting my finished builds and back when I first started doing that in 05’, I got loads of criticism from people who are gone or very inactive now. To me, this site has gone down the drain in terms of criticism and feedback that teaches something, it has not always been that way, its just all the water is gone… But honestly, I feel that right now it is just fine the way it is, the only thing I would like to see more of is much more activity in the armor section. We really only have about 10-15 very active posters(In armor), and then the thousands of people who choose to post maybe once or twice and then leave(no offense intended and I do apologize if I have). A fine example of all of this is that I have been on here every day for the past 3 weeks and within the last 3-4 days the same topics have all been on the first or second page. In 05’ when I first joined you could post a topic of your amazing build and get 20 comments and it would be on the 6th or 7th page in a day. My point anyway, is that this site(or this section in particular) is becoming inactive,( not that I am saying I will ever leave as I love this forum as it has helped me in so many ways) and that we need to really get things going again if we ever want to have what we once had, true learning.
Once again if my rant offended you I do apologize and I do realize the last paragraph is slightly off topic so please read it and if it pertains to you PM me so we can keep this on topic.
[2c]
-Alex
Hey, this is kind of funny. I was getting a drink of water and flipped up the September issue of FSM. It opened to the “Detailing a Kursk Tiger” article. Here’s the first three lines:
Nothing attracts people to a model more quickly than a beautiful paint job. But what do they see when they get a closer look? If you’ve ever been in a contest, you know it’s the well constructed kits that win awards.
What a coincidence, huh?
Jesse
As I was trying to say in my previous postings, it dependes what you are there for. I only have to please me. I go to the competitions to see other models, meet other modelers and see how my skills are. Are am more interested in my progression against a standard that saying I won. Its not the competition, it is the mdeling community. Singling out #1, for me does not bring unity. Don’t get me wrong, is it nice to win a gold medal…of course, but I have been to both and enjoy AMPS more. The show is just for that …show, show what you can do and see and get ideas from others, like this forum.
Everyone is different…that is my motivation…if yours is to win first place and it works for you…great, but if you are going to knock and complain about the system and there is an alternative, if you don’t look your being close minded. Its not for everyone but some may find a better home.
Rounds Complete!!
Hmmph! [|(] “Sunshine Club” you say?! [%-)] (LOL!)
I’ve given a fair degree of thought to this proposition over the last hour or so, sitting at the desk and mulling it over. I have some thoughts on it.
First, I don’t consider this a “Sunshine Club”–if indeed that appelation has some sort of perjorative connotation to it? I have seen some serious, hard-hitting and even harsh criticism leveled at some models here. Fortunately, we seem to have a good group of “regulars” who respect each other, and know how to level criticism without being unnecessarily harsh.
Second, I believe that it’s very important to consider the context and reality of what this site is, and why it is. This is important to place the criticism of what some perceive as the depth or integrity of the criticisms given here into some sort of perspective.
This is the forums of the Finescale Modeler magazine. (All together now; “DUH?!” ! [party]) As such, it is the online extension of what is described as “the world’s leading magazine dedicated to scale modeling”. By virtue of this fact, it casts a wide net, pulling in modelers of all skill levels, but I would certainly argue that because of it’s wide variety of content–much of it geared toward beginners/moderate modelers–that it pulls in much more of the “noob”/beginner" modeler than perhaps other sites which exist only online?
Many of these young/inexperienced/new modelers just simply don’t have the confidence to put their work up for criticism, to be judged against some of the more experienced modelers on the site. This, I believe, is possible why you have a “core group” of modelers who post here, and many of whom make up the “regulars”. (To be honest, I have seen the same weird phenomenon to some extent on other sites; it’s really not very different, IMO.) Moreover, I’ve seen some truly amazing progression of skill form people here in a very short time!
However, in light of the fact that many of the members here are "lurkers’ and “learners”, what would it serve this site to gravitate toward the kind of harsh, critical, “expert level” criticism which would surely only discourage even more modelers from posting? Who wants to throw their model before a bunch of rivet counters? If you do, and if you are at that level, you already know some of the other sites out there which cater to more of that aspect. It’s all about filling a “need”. There is a “need” for a site like this–just as there is a need for a modeling magazine like Finescale Modeler. I’m sure that its circulation far outweighs that of some of the dedicated Armor-only magazines out there?
Next, I checked out Armorama to see if this site is really that much more “lenient” (?) in terms of criticism. Nothing that I saw there convinced me of that claim. Nor did I see that much more completed builds/WIP posts on the front page of the Armor forum as opposed to questions, kit reports, etc–same as here, really! Lots of “attaboys” as well. (You wanna see “Attaboy Heaven”, check out ____; well, no; lets not go there!) However, in my experience, and in my opnion only, it seems somewhat harder to get the same amount of replys to a post there than here. Perhaps that is due to the sheer size of the site, ie, the subdivisions of categories which might “funnel” the traffic somewhat? I don’t know?..
Anyhoo–I digress…I sincerely do not believe that this site is stale, or “falling off” in any way. It’s significant to note that in the past, there were apparently some major blow-ups which caused a lot of members to perform an exodus–was this when the site was more critical and/or “populated”? In my opinion, we’ve been pretty lucky here since I’ve joined in January of 2007. We seem to have a pretty tight, respectful group of “regulars”, and I’m noticing new names all the time (and some very talented ones at that!). And lest anyone think that I’m making any braod statements about this site having less “hard-core” participants than others, I believe that we have some of the best modelers I’ve seen on this site. There is some seriously great work posted here!
As far as this site turning into an “uber-weathering haven”, I disagree yet again. There are indeed some very good “Weatherheads” here; and yes, we criticise–but not harshly or excessively. Ironically, I would cite as an example the very same M20 thread in which the weathering “issue” was brought up respectfully, but never pressed! Several of our most respected, longer-term members are also dedicated “Clean Beans” (my term, apologies if anyone takes offense–none intended! [;)]) In fact, I think that the percentages rather balance out rather evenly?
Ok; gonna get into some “touchy” territory here–please withhold judgment until you read through it!
It seems to me that posts of heavily weathered models by their very nature elicit slightly more “How’d ya do that” posts and questions. Also, we’ve had quite a few “Uber-weathering” tutorials here. Personally, I consider this fact to be a real boon, but could this be the reason that some mistakenly regard this site in such a manner? Personally, I consider Weathering to be an “additional skill” to that of building and painting a model. It’s sort-of a “learning curve” or progression of skill, in my opinion. Kinda like playing lead is an extra skill beyond playing rythym if you’re a guitarist. [:-^] We learn to build well. Then we learn how to apply a great paint job. For some, that’s where it stops, and they’re content. Nothing wrong with that all! After all, what’s a “solo” without a “song” to support it? Who said all songs need “solo’s”?
But beyond that, there’s the Art of Weathering/Soloing. It takes a certain amount of practice, knowledge, dedication, skill, and --and I believe that this may sometimes be overlooked–a fair degree of confidence. Confidence comes with practice and dedication. In that respect, I respect a well-weathered model because to me it reflects another level of commitment. Now, I’m not making a judgment on what’s “better” here. It’s sometimes just as difficult to do a lightly weathered model, and to make it look "real. But let’s face it; ALL models start out as “clean”. The weathering process is just an additional layer, and when effected well, the questions from those wishing to be informed on the method just come naturally, with the usual commitment from the questioner to try his own appplication of the technique. Nobody ever asks how you didn’t weather something? [%-)]
Again, I am not judging the validity of the two approaches; I have also some “clean” builds in my cases, as well as the more-weathered builds you would be more familiar with here. But I think that the charge of this site being in any way dominated by a singular modeling philosophy is a bit short-sighted.
So that’s my “200 cents”. [:-^] In closing, I just want to add that I’ll take a “Sunshine Club”, where the mebers show respect and temperance toward each other, and where the longevity of the participants is more assured, and the commuity a stronger whole, than a harsher, more-impartial venue of cold critiques from people whom you never hear from twice; and that’s one of the reasons why I’m loyal to this site more than most.
“I love you guys!!!” [BH]…LOL! [(-D]
Karl - Dude, your editorial response is well thought out and WELL SAID.
We have all kinds on this site from Germahaloics, Rivit Counters, Weatherhead, and even me being OD and mostly clean.
We have all had our moments here. There is two parts of a review, one is scientific, looking for “mistakes” and the other is art. Weathering falls into art. I tend to model from experience or photos. The M20 Karl was talking about, I knew would get the comments that it did but…they were in their opinion.
As I stated before, I build for me. I DEEPLY enjoy the opinions of the people on this site but if there are no scientific errors, the art, like Frank S said, “I’ll do it my way”.
Lastly, as I have also said…if you are in this to win contests…well you may not be able to listen to Frank!!
Rounds Complete!!
I’d disagree with you here, Karl. I joined in 2003 (had a different screen name then). Since then, I seen a dramatic increase in off topic posts and “Spam” postings. Postings like “Show us your…” and poll questions just dilute real Armor postings and push them off the page. I’ve also seen a real decrease in people posting their work. Back in the good ol’ days, we used to see a lot of post like “How do I do this?”,“What do think of this kit?”,“How’s my model look?”, etc. Now there just seems to be a lot junk posting. I’m active in other forums too, and I don’t see nearly as much junk.
I’ve seriously considered leaving FSM but my heart is still here. I sincerely hope we can somehow get back to postings about Armor and put this junk behind us.
-Jesse
Quote: “I seen a dramatic increase in off topic posts and “Spam” postings.”
Jesse, why do you think that is?
I honestly don’t know. Maybe some people just like to “hear” themselves talk. Who knows…
I understand the dislike for off-topic posts to a degree, but I am a bit torn on that subject. On one hand , I would love to see only discussion and pictures of models, regardless of subject. On the other hand, I don’t think that is really possible without the forum dying down, maybe not completely, but by quite a bit.
Case and point is Scale Auto Forums. Granted, they have not ever had the volume that this site does, but the activity on that forum is stagnant very often. There is no “odds and ends” forum, and in fact, they delete any post that gets slightly off topic or doesn’t involve building model cars. They even deleted a 1:1 section because they felt it didn’t have enough to do with modeling. I have stopped posting on Scale Auto, and now I only visit it every other day just to check what’s new, but it really doesn’t change much. My point is that even though there may be a lot that doesn’t really have to do with models per se, those posts and topics do their part (however slight that may be) to keep the forum active.
I feel that most of the “off-topic” posts are relevant…I mean, no matter what hobbies you have in your life you are bound to have a group of people get together who share that interest and discuss not only the hobby, but the peripherals around that hobby. In our (modeling) case it might be unit history, pics of actual vehicles, favorite kits, how big your stash is, favorite manufacturer, tools, etc…I don’t feel that these are really off-topic to the hobby of building scale models…
I liken it to folks who fly airplanes for a hobby (which I sometimes do)…for every hour in the air, you have three to four hours of post-flight BS to talk about in the airport lounge with your flying buddies…I consider that banter part of the hobby, and part of the fun…
I’ve been on both sides of this before. I’ve won with a not-so-great build, and had one of my best-ever efforts completely ignored by judges.
I once built a 120mm panzergrenadier, complete with all the gear that a panzergrenadier would carry - but no more than that. You guys know about these figures. You spend one or two afternoons cutting, shaving, filing and fitting, and then the better part of a week or a month painting them. Skin tones, shadows, lines around the eyes, a light 5 o’clock shadow. Autumn camo pattern, light wear on the equipment and dust on the boots.
The judge glanced at it and said, “That’s cool, but does he have to have so much stuff?”
It’s the primary reason why I don’t enter contests any more. I build tanks, take pics of them, and put them on the shelf for my own enjoyment. I don’t need the approval of some guy who, as has been said here already, may or may not have ever seen the subject matter up close. It’s not that I look on the judges with any kind of disdain - it’s just that I don’t necessarily need someone telling me that my tank, which I may have spent 60 or 70 hours on, is too heavily weathered? I like to build them with a lot of weathering. I think it gives a particular feel - and frankly, I reject the notion that these vehocles didn’t get that heavily weathered in WWII. I think we all have enough pictures in our reference material that will back me up on that.
In the original post on this thread, there’s a picture of a StuG that looks heavily weathered, and certainly more heavily done than most vehicles on the line. But I think it’s wrong to say that it’s unrealistic. Refer to your pics.
OK, sorry. That’s my rant for the day.
Tigertankman said “ImHO one single flaw should not be enough to knock someones model out of competition if it has a wonderful and obviously skilled paint job/weathering job,…”
I respectfully disagree. If you build a model, give it a fab paint job, but leave a basic flaw that is very noticable (eg fail remove all the flash from a part, fail to fill/smooth some seams etc) then the person who got the basics right and applied a mediocre paint/weather scheme should win. For example, several years ago there was modeler who converted a 1/32 Mustang into the Red Baron RB-51. His modifications and workmanship appeared to be great and the paint job had to be seen to be believed. There was even a two or three page feature on the model in FSM and everyone oh’d and aw’d over it (the contra-prop even worked). Then He entered it in the Nats and to everone’s suprise didn’t win a thing. Judges found a basic flaw - when you looked down thru the canopy into the cockpit, you saw daylight coming up thru the wheel wells. So the Judges rightly down checked the model.
Thanks for posting your take on this, Jesse, but let’s just look by comparison at Armorama, and Track Link–two sites which I feel closely mirror this site.
On Armorama, you have 30 topics on the first page of the “Armor” forums page. Of these, there are 4 “sticky” threads. Out of 26 remaining open posts then, as of this morning (Wednesday) there were only SIX full built kits or kit builds going on that I found. That left 20 posts, with such diverse titles as “looking for instructions”; “I’ve finally cracked!”; and “Anyone take Braille Scale seriously?”. Similar to FSM? (note–and being that the front page as I understand it contains all the latest posts from the many, colllctive forums available there, that’s saying something?)
On Track Link, which has a much smaller page for displaying topics, it’s somewhat harder to get a “read” on the percentages, but there are only 5 active build logs currently going on the “active” front page it seems. Other topics there include "Wil you ever build your stash; “Solitary project?” ( a post “poll-type” post asking about “working alone” on kits); and two more “poll” type questions–“Your Oldest In-pPogress Kit” and “Favorite Online Shop?”. Very smilar to FSM!
By contrast, out of only 23 available “slots” on the FSM frontpage, there are currently as of this morning 7 “built” or WIP post!!! Percentag-wise, that’s more than Armorama, and appears to be more than Track Link? So withall honesty, and with all due respect to your opinion, I don’t really see where there’s a real basis for this type of complaint against this site. We are really no different–from my admittedly limited reaearch–than some other sites!
Perhaps you could tell me which site you consider to be so much more “serious”? Seriously, I would like to check that out.
Lets be honest–we have a fair amount of “talk” here and “poll”-type questions here. But as A C Modeler just pointed out, that amount of traffic does help to keep the site active! And I would argue that those type of questions really do give the people on this site “personality”. I mean we should all ask ourselves an honest question–when one of these “off topic” type posts pop up, do we ignore them or do we post on them? It seems to me that for as much as some people comlain about them, they might still be posting a response to the question posited. I mean, this is the “water cooler talk” that exists in any and every community where people band together for the sharing of a common interest. Without it, we would lose a tremendous amount of appeal, and loosen the bonds of the “community” and the “personalities” here. As I said before–give me a site like this any day over a dry, utilitarian, bland site of strictly information; I have “google” for that!
Well, I’m gonna p*ss people off again with this one, but I feel this so strongly that I have to say it. You know what I personally think has hurt the Armor forums in terms of the amount of builds being actively logged here?.
So many “Group Build” projects. I mean, check this list of active armor-related GB’s currently on the front page of the GB forums. We have:
-
Service and Supply GB
-
M113 GB
3.The Forgotten War GB
- 251 Halftrack GB
5.Vintage Armor GB
- Big Cats GB
7.Gulf War GB
- Junior Modeler’s GB
9.Cold War GB
- Red Storm on the Reich GB
Sheesh! Really now–ask yourself–how many great WIP builds and completed kit posts do you think are being siphoned away from the “general” Armor forum here? I know that the collective decision by the community here of moving of the GB’s over there was (and still apparently is) a sore spot with some members here, but seriously–look at all those build projects going into those threads. Some very productive members are active in several at one time, and since they are incvolved in those GB’s, they are not posting here! I’ve looked at the lists of particpants, and realized how many guys we don’t see posting over here who are involved neck-deep in GB’s. They used to be far more active here! Let’s face it; if you only have “X” amount of time a day to post or look at some posts, if you’re involved in one, two, or even three GB’s, you’ll spend your time within those “exclusive” posts. Moving the GB’s “over there” or “back over here” is not the problem, and would not “solve” the problem, in my opinion. It’s just a fact of life–too many Group Builds funnel traffic and WIP/build posts away from the general community. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never been interested in them?
I personally don’t see the problem with “off topic” posts–avtually, without them, there would be even less traffic here in this particular forum. I only hope that when some of these Group Builds end, that the members who participated in them will do a few “general forum” builds before migrating once again over to the GB forums.
And I feel that is why in so many IPMS sponsored contests there is dissention in the outcome of awards…the IPMS judging system concentrates on and rewards the basics…I feel the hobby has outgrown this style of judging but that’s their system, right or wrong…I personally feel that that system “can’t see the forest for the trees”…When I have helped judge these contests the other judges were fixated on finding seams, glue smears, pin marks, etc…almost to the point they never (I feel) really looked at the entire presentation…
This approach to judging reminds me of when I was at school, studying foreign languages, 35 and more years ago. You had to be able to write essays in the relevant language (I was studying French, German and Latin), and the essays had to be of a certain minimum length. No marks were awarded for literary merit, stylistic complexity, or breadth of vocabulary. Marks were, however, deducted for grammar, vocab and spelling mistakes.
Thus, all you had to do to get straight 'A’s was to write simple, boring, gramatically correct but unadventurous work of at least 150 (or whatever) words. You started by being awarded full marks, and if no mistakes were made, no marks could be deducted. We used to say that if the results were deadly dull, that wasn’t our problem, but that of the examiners…
Cheers,
Chris.
In my club’s annual contest, we use a system of judging that I have found to be a pretty fair system, but still takes into account the basics. We use a points-based system that scores each model separately, by 3 judges, on several different criteria. There is a link to our entry form (with judges sheet on the bottom) here. It is a great system that has been adopted by several nearby clubs for thier upcoming shows, and we typically have very few complaints about it.
I tend to agree with Tigertankman and Mannstein, and when I judge I look at the overall presentation of the model, but also at the basics. If there is a really awesome paint job and also several basic flaws, they almost cancel each other out, but it is a case-by-case kind of decision. In my eyes that one flaw–the daylight through the wheel wells–would not be enough to significantly hurt an otherwise pristine model, and I would question a judge who thought that it should.
Yeah, but topics like “looking for instructions”, “I’ve finally cracked!” and “Anyone take Braille Scale seriously?” aren’t armor related?
But topics like “well i am off to COlUMBIA in a few”, “Photobucket hacked!” and “Biggest concert of my career???” are? [;)]
The overall mission objective of model building is achieiving the
illusion of a subject that appears as realistic as possible from all perspectives (short of just blatant, glaring errors). After all, it is a hobby based on life-like resemblance and so therefore should be judged as such.
The cumulative effect of all techniques involved should be considered in the judging process. The model entry should be judged as a whole entity instead of just nitpicking it apart.
That being said illustrates the uselessness of rivet counting. So, 1000 or 1001 or 1010 rivets so to speak? What does it matter if the model in question grabs your eye and shakes your senses while eliciting a response of “WOW, LOOK AT THAT - THAT’S SO SUPER LOOKING!,” First impressions are lasting impressions so an initial reaction to the “educated eye”, such as above should speak volumes.
Nothin’ borin about this, eh? …that was my first impression.
“WOW, LOOK AT THAT - THAT’S SO SUPER LOOKING!,” ………Mission accomplished.
Disastermaster
Wow, this one’s gotten pretty deep! I suppose I should weigh in with my [2c].
I suppose I’m a middle-of-the-road weatherer - I try sometimes to go all-out, really mucking up a build, but never seem to get all the way there. [;)] But to me, so long as you’re portraying something “accurately”, shouldn’t the weathering be as equally fundamental as construction in judging a build? Isn’t it part of portraying something in a scaled-down version of itself? Vehicles are rarely found in pristine “motor pool” condition, even in peacetime.
I agree that sometimes there are posts that are so off-topic, they probably shouldn’t be included here in the armor forum. However, I also feel that a lot of the “spam” posts as you’re calling them lead to getting to know your fellow forum members a lot better. I don’t know about you, but when I put up a build for “consideration” [:D] the words (and criticism) of people that I know and respect carry much more weight than those of someone who I do not know, who’s work I’ve never seen, who I have no idea about their background/opinions/etc. Does that make sense? I think one reason I like this forum so much is that I’ve been able to get to know so many of it’s participants…a very different feel than when I pop in to other ‘serious’ forums and feel much more like an outsider.
I’m apparently one of those “productive members active in several at once”. A self-admitted GB junkie, even! [(-D] Doog, I don’t think that you’re going to piss anyone off (well, not me anyway) - but I am a bit surprised. Do you really think that GB’s hurt the armor forum?
I’ve always decided to keep my WIP stuff within the respective GB’s…just because I really didn’t think anyone would be particularly interested in what I’m currently cranking out. And if they were, they would probably be perusing the applicable GB from time to time? I guess I most feel like this with something like the 251 Halftracks GB (of which I am the host) - does anyone really want the armor forum to be inundated with 19 or 20 similar WIP threads…all at once? Perhaps they would be interesting towards the latter ends of each build once painting and weathering starts, but I can’t imagine that the first half involving wheels, suspension, attaching the chassis would be highly riveting to everyone. At least in the GB, I know that everyone there is interested at least from a reference standpoint in what I’m doing.
Also, I feel like a “spammer” putting up multiple piles of pics both here and in the pertinent GB thread! I don’t mind duplicating my finished build pics, but it just seems terribly redundant to everyone involved to see the exact same stuff in 2 different threads. Perhaps I’m wrong?
I guess it boils down to how people feel the armor forum should be represented. Are the majority of forum members wanting to see MORE work-in-progress type threads?