Been meaning to ask someone about that J kit Jon. I have Osprey’s Air Combat book entitled “Bell AH-1 Cobra” by Mike Verier. It was published in 1990 and I dont think its easy to come by anymore. Anyway it was a very large chapter on Operation MARHUK with loads of pics. After reading the book, several times, I also want to do a MARJUK bird, especially in 1/48th.
And you can never get enough of the old Monogram kit lol. The one I’ve been working on(very slowly for the past 5-6 months) is going to painted up as one my father’s birds form Desert Storm. This one is called “Betsy”, I wish I knew what the tail number was but unfortunatly all the pictures I have of it, none are of the tail section. There are two more birds I wish to make as well that were in my dad’s unit. One is OD green with a big, red sharksmouth and yellow crossed sabers on the sides of the doghouse and the other is sand colored with a Jack Daniel’s whiskey logo on both sides of the doghouse. The latter of these two, I believe the tail number is “497.” Thats all I can read on the pics. If I ever get this old decrepet scanner working, Ill get these pics up on here.
my father was A/4/77th ARA in 1970-71…as you may or may not know, ARA used the cobra quite a bit differently than the line aviation battalions and the cav. The most notable physical difference being that the ARA birds almost always have 19 shot pods on all four wing stations. From what I understand, and all the photos and such that I have seen, it is very rare indeed to find a cobra in the “heavy hog” configuration unless it was ARA. My father has told me that the ARA guys did not like the 20mm equiped helicopters for various reasons, and I have reference photos of some of their 20mm capable birds being used exclusively with the 4 x 19 shot pods. I also think I have, or could get some photos of some of their birds with the “double thumper” twin 40 mm chin pods…although my memory is fuzzy compairing what he has in his photo album, versus what I have in digital format.
Another main difference between ARA vs line aviation battalions or cav was that the ARA was tied into the divarty net, as I understand it…and worked thru those channels, with 2 birds on hot alert ready to provide aerial fire missions at all times…he has related to me that they flew quite a bit at night, providint fire mission support to units in contact, and that they hated to fly at night in the mountains of I corps…in fact, the A/4/77th lost two cobras and crews from his platoon in a nightime midair. This link shows all the fatalities of cobra’s in vietnam…
He also has told me that the ARA would fly the red portion of early and late pink teams with the 2/17th cav in order to suplement that units 9 cobra order of battle. (an ARA battery had 12 cobras)…
if you start with this link, and dig thru the various ARA, CAV, and Line Aviation Battalions or AWC’s there is a wealth of information on this website…
The reason the ARA was used differently, was outfitted with all rockets, and was on the DIVARTY net was that they were Arial Rocket Artillery, not an Attack Aviation unit. They belonged to the artillery and most of the officers and men were assigned to the artillery. Many of the officers wore artillery brass as well.
The officers did not exclusively wear artillery brass. Aviation Branch did not exist until 1985, so the unit’s officers were branched completely differently, even though they were aviators. I know several officers who were in 2/20th ARA who were Infantry or Armor officers as well as Artillerymen. The ARA flew heavy hog quite a bit, but I do have pics of 2/20 birds with both 20mm and 7-shot pods (although these are the exception, not the rule). As Phantom Works pointed out, it was not uncommon to see 20mm capable birds with 4 19-rocket pods instead of the 20mm mounted.
Whiskey - I think I’ve got Mike’s Cobra book somewhere around here. If I find it, I’ll try to scan the pages on MARHUK.
Someone else was asking about the ID of the Tube, the test spec requires it to be 2.8" by 42" long. Of course there is some minor plus and minus dimensions but nothing that you would notice in the model scales.
Bob Shockey the pilot ground school instructor was awarded a civilian medal of some type for his help on the team. Bob was the only guy I met that had a photographic memory, he could tell you when the pilot pressed the gun trigger what relays would actuate but also the wire numbers. Amazing person, lived and breathed aviation.
Eh little miscommunication there Jon, have the book. I was refering to the pics of my dad’s cobras from Desert Storm that I have to work on getting scanned so all can see. If ya’ll want some very different -F(fully modernized) pictures that no one else has probably seen, lemme know cause the more demand, the more motivation I have to getting it done lol.
two of the best books regarding I corp late war actions are Into Laos, and Ripcord…both by Keith Nolan. Although short on pictures, they describe the 101st ABD heliborne operations in great detail, and give a very good historical picture of how a fully integrated airmobile division operated at that point in time and in that region, against that enemy.
this is a 2/20th blue max cobra that is NOT in heavy hog config (as cobrahist aluded to earlier)…also, it appears the cobra in the next revetment over is painted nearly gloss black or otherwise very dark OD green…any thoughts?
these are more typical photographs of blue max cobras (from what I’ve found) in the heavy hog configuration
That second Blue Max bird is from B Battery and if you look closely, it is a VERY early AH-1 with the TAT-102 turret. Single minigun, tail number is probably in the 66-152?? range. Some great pics there! Also, in the first shot, it looks that A Battery bird is parked in a 1/9th Cav revetment, so the darker bird next to it is most likely NOT a Max bird (although I have seen a few Blue Max birds that were black, but they all had the unit insignia on em).
Whiskey - Sorry for the screw up there! Turns out I don’t have that book anyhow. I’d definitely like to see some cool markings for AH-1F’s because I have NO idea how I’m gonna paint mine. Its in overall Helo Drab right now, but other than that, who knows!
Ed- Thanks for the link there! I’m gonna see if I can get a hold of that report here at Rucker. Shouldn’t be an issue to copy it, especially if it is in the museum.
I’ve been catching up on the AH-1 thread. As Jon knows, I flew with the 2/20th ARA during 1970 and 1971. Most of our birds were configured as 'heavy hogs", but we did have a few that carried the XM-159 inboard and the XM-157 outboard. The seven shot pods were a bundled seven tube arrangement as opposed to the standard cylindrical seven shot tube. One of the differences I’ve noticed in photos is that the 4/77th liked to load the outboard XM-159 with 17 pounders with the lighter 10 pounders and flechettes loaded on the inboard pods. We did the exact opposite in the 2/20th. Due to the density altitude we never carried a full load of seventeen pounders in the "heavy hog configuration. We did carry a near full load with the 159/157 configuration.
I, personally liked the XM-35 20mm cannon. It was especially useful at night for several reasons. (1) We didn’t need to be in perfect trim to put rounds on the target so it reduced the amount of time we spent with our face pointed at the ground during night ops. (2) We could engage .51 cal AA at a longer range. (3) It was easier to engage multiple threats in a single run; put the pipper on the target and mash the button. Setting up a rocket shot took more manuevering. If it had a major drawback, it was weight. The beast was heavy and required minimum loadout of other ordanance.
We had several birds with the twin M-134 minigun installation in the turret. I never saw the twin XM-129 arrangement. I have spoken to a number of 4/77th pilots and I believe they did use the arrangement. I didn’t like the “thumper”; it was a genuine pain in the back pockets to load and because I was never sure where the darned rounds were going. I did use it a lot as an area fire supression tool when taking Medevac birds out of their PZ’s. All those bits of shrapnel zipping around would keep enemy heads down and discourage taking a cheap shot at the lumbering Huey.
We had RLO’s from many branches as pilots in the 2/20th, however, the CO, XO, and Ops officer were generally from the Artillery branch. This made sense since we were part of the Divarty structure and those guys understood the system. The only deviation I can recall was one of our battery CO’s was an Air Defense Artillery officer.
I may be a little prejudiced, but it was common knowledge that the only guys who really knew what was going on were the Warrants. OK, there were a few RLO’s who got the picture, but they were Warrants before they lost there minds and took direct commissions!
as I understand it, 4/77th ARA got a bunch of 2/20th ARA cobra’s during Lam Son 719 as attrition replacements. Do you recall this to be true? My father remembers getting birds with the maltese cross on them at khe sahn…I think I have one photo that documents it. There is clearly a marking on the doghouse, but otherwise it is so fuzzy that I can’t be sure, and he can not remember. He has told me that 101st didn’t allow any personal or unit markings on their birds…except for the screaming eagle patch on the tail, and a colored arrow on the fuslelage adjacent to the stub wings, just behind the pods. I know A battery was red arrow, but can’t remember B and C battery colors. It appears that the crossed cannon emblem made it onto a few helicopters in spite of division orders, but it is very rare to see pictures of a 101st ARA cobra with any special markings on it at all.
If I remember correctly, his dislike of the 20mm was based not only on weight considerations but also on tracking tracer fire and impact point in triple canopy jungle…and also if I remember correctly, he felt that the best way to beat the .51 cal of the NVA was long range rocket shooting and proper coordination between wingmen. I have some emails from him that may document some of this…I’ll dig them out if I get a chance. I do remember him stating that shooting rockets at night, you had to close one eye…shoot…then open the other eye to fly with while the first eye recovered from the flash blindness from the rockets. I think that’s they way he related it to me. I have no idea how they do it in todays environment with NVG’s.
(this is a totally tangential comment, but I find the .50 cal gatling gun that is now making it’s way onto little birds and such would have been a much better weapon than the 20mm had it been available during those days…that round is hard to beat in terms of ballistics and muzzle velocity, and the unit weight and recoil and such should have shown advantages in comparison had it been available. Certainly it now gives the little birds and kiowas a heavy advantage for a such a small scout / light attack ship.)
That would make sense, as the 1st Cav headed home, minus the 3rd Brigade in 1971 and I’m pretty sure the 2/20th left most of their birds in-country. 2/20th left C Battery (Snakedriver’s unit!) in-country and redesignated it F/79th AFA. A and B Batteries were sent home with the division. I’m in close contact with COL McKay, the battery commander from F/79th and going back to earlier in this conversation, he was an artillery officer. As for 4/77th’s markings were red arrow for A Battery, White for B Battery and Blue for C Battery.
As for your comment on firing rockets at night, I can certainly attest to that. Fired my first night table last night and WOW! Scored a direct hit on an M-47 too. Just firing “Blue Spears” (no live warhead) it lit up the sky, I can only imagine what it would have done, were it an HE warhead! Fortunately, in the Apache, your right eye isn’t dark adapted, so when the rocket motor fires, it doesn’t affect your right eye much. Just remember to keep that left one closed!
The GAU-19 .50 cal looks like it is going to be an impressive weapon. The 160th has been using them pretty effectively and it is slated to go on the ARH (although it doesn’t look like the ARH is gonna happen now, but that’s a different topic). Still, I’d rather the 20mm simply for better range and high explosive rounds. .50 cal is great, but the 20mm is considerably better!
Great pictures and info, thanks Jon, Snakedriver and phantom.
What do you guys make of these, the first one said that its a cobra in Vietnam supporting troops under fire, but if you look, there are some white squares spaced out in the picture that make it look like some kind of firing range or maybe they are buildings? Great picture though.
This may be a really daft question but i cant be sure so i had to ask, is this a real picture or a model ??
2/20th did send some aircraft up north to the 4/77th during Lam Son 719. I think a few pilots also went , but I can not be certain of that. I left RVN in the middle of February '71.
The First Cav did not discourage unit markings, hence most of our birds were marked on the “Doghouse” with the Pour Le Merite, Blue Max, cross. Personal markings were authorized at battalion level in 1970, but were restricted to simple 4 inch block letters applied in white. Charlie Battery began to apply large “billboard” art to our aircraft in the late fall of 1970. The first aircraft (68-17054) to recieve the treatment was “Sound of Silence”. “Murder Inc”, “Iron Butterfly”, “Grim Reaper”, “Mean Mr. Mustard”,and “USA 1” soon followed. The 229th and some 1/9 Cav had impressive nose art before we did. C Troop, 1/9 Cav had awesome shark mouth markings and smaller personal markings. When 2/20th was shipped home, it’s aircraft and some pilots remained to form F/79th AFA. They retained the “Blue Max” markings along with a Cav patch and crossed cannons on the tail. Most of the nose art had disappeared by then.
Closing one eye worked to prevent total night blindness while firing rockets in the dark. I flew a lot at night and relied heavily on instruments and my front seater to stay safe. A full or three quarter moon was not bad to fly in (you at least had a horizon), but on moonless nights or in marginal weather, you were flying inside a black bag so flash blindness from the rockets was incidental. Attacking at night took concentration and close crew coordination to be successful.During the last months of my tour we worked the border between III and II Corps. the area was on the southern frige of the central highlands so knowledge of the terrain and the ability to visualize the area in three dimensions was essential.
Each unit perfected its own preferred method to deal with .51 cal threats. 2/20th used a technique we called Time on Target(TOT). Four aircraft would launch a coordinated attack from different directions and simultaneously launch our entire load on the offending individuals. This worked during the day, but was useless at night for obvious reasons. Before we got the 20mm, we used a decoy tactic to get at the .51 cal. The NVA had poor diets (no fresh vegetables and little fruit)consequently they were hamstrung by poor depth perception at night. We would put one bird high and out of effective range with his lights on bright. The second bird would get inside the .51’s range blacked out. When the .51 cal crew opened up on the high bird the low bird would try to kill the threat. With the XM-35 we stood out of range and hammered at 'em. The 20mm had an advantage over the rocket in triple canopy jungle. Those armor piercing rounds got through the trees and into the holes with the NVA. They were also great for blasting away at bunkers.
First shot is definitely on a range. We don’t have wide-open ones here at rucker, but we do have panel targets like that. Second one, IMHO is a model. Pretty good one but a model nonetheless!
I saved that pic thinking it was real, then after I stared at it for about 10 mins realised it was a kit. Damn good one at that. Even looking at it now you have doubts!! It’s a great pic.
Jon,
Thanks for explaining those Matchbox panel lines!!
