I think the point is we don’t know the quality of the kit until AFTER we’ve purchased it and opened the box. Then it’s too late to take it back. Most hobby shops that I know of will not take a kit back after it’s been opened. Shark-41, would you have bought the Panda kits you refer to if you had known what you were getting before-hand? Probably not. So, that’s why I think that if a company wants to charge us high dollars for a kit, they oughta make it worth the extra money. I guarantee you - if you bought a car and it wasn’t up to the standards that the manufacturer set, you’d be back at that dealer raising holy h e double hockey sticks about paying that much money for a lemon. Same reasoning goes here.
better to pay more for quality than pay more for more crap.
Wow, gents… lots of good thought on this subject, and I agree with almost everyting in the thread, including conflicting opinions. No, I’m not that wishy-washy, I just see an element of truth in just bout everything I read here.
Yes indeed we started modeling as kids, and many of us treated at least some of our finished projects as toys. No regrets here… I had lots of fun both building and playing with the models of my youth.
What I resent now is modern kits that seem engineered and manufactured as if they were marketed to grade-schoolers, but priced our of reach of many adults.
I enjoy customizing my builds with aftermarket parts and scratch-built details to dress them up, but don’t enjoy having to fix large errors in basic shape, such as in Trumpeter’s 1/32 Thud radome. In that kit I’d be willing to pony up a few extra bucks for metal landing gear if that’s what it took to get both reasonable detail and legs that would bear the weight. Having made those comments, I should say I’ve avoided buying the kit because of the printed reviews and information here and elsewhere on the Web. I rarely buy a kit sight unseen until I’ve read something from builders first… a byproduct of the prices we now pay.
On the other hand, I pre-ordered Tamiya’s big F-16CJ without much rworry, based on the quality of the F-4s and F-15s that preceded it. I did some homework, paying $109 instead of MSRP, and have no regrets. Based on my past experience with their 1/32 kits, I would not have made the same leap of faith for either Trumpeter or Academy.
Sure, the kits we love are more expensive all the time. Are they worth it? Ask anyone who has ever built both Revell’s original 1/32 Phantom series from the '70s AND the Tamiya counterparts of the '90s. Sure, the Tamiyas weren’t flawless, but while I found the Revell kits an exercise in frustration, the Tamiyas were a genuinely pleasure to build. If I had the choice of spending $20 on the Revell versus $120 on the Tamiyas today there would be no contest. Maybe part of the decision is whether the model will ever end up built… the Tami definitely would.
My message to the manufacturers:
- We know the business is expensive… give us good value, not cheap
- Those buying kits for $100+ don’t want toys, but an enjoyable building experience
- Provide a decent model–something that will look like it should right out of the box for those who like to build that way or on a budget, but still provides a good “canvas” for AM parts and scratchbuilt detailing.
- Be consistent in the quality of your offerings–lots of billionaires have been made in our world by delivering a consistent product or service – if you treat us right we’ll help you become the next ones
- Make parts meaningful… Tamiya is on the right track by offering a complete engine, its stand, and some bay detail in it’s Viper. Offering genuine options is better than offering only enough of an option to promote it on the boxtop or in ads.
*Most of us would rather wait a bit longer to allow you to get it right the first time than to have something released in a hurry and be just plain wrong.
Thanks for starting a good discussion, Sharkskin.
–Larry
I wholeheartedly support sharskin’s very interesting considerations, we modellers really must express our feelings to make this hobby better. But Jeff Herne did too a very precise statement: Trumpeter is on the learning curve - and they’re learning fast, fortunately. I do feel Trumpeter must be acknowledged for having put COMPETITION back to this hobby - or we would be forever living with old companies re-releasing their “classic” kits (i.e., 30 to 40 years old ones), just like Revell-Monogram is still doing to this day. Talking of R-M, don’t forget they did a lot of bad kits in the past, like the poor fitting A/F-18, B-26 and Intruder, or the wrongly-shaped B-24, just to name a few. And it’s a very respected kit manufacturer. Look at the recent issues of FSM, there’s an article like “Correcting the R-M xxxx kit” in almost every issue, clearly stating there’s still a market for them. (Maybe we will see FSM in the future doing articles like “Correcting the old Trumpeter xxxx kit” !!)
After having seen kit manufacturers in a lethargic condition for so many years and most US manufacturers slowly disappearing, Trumpeter is actually a relief in the market, and they’re really pushing other manufaturers to improve their kits (just see recent releases from Academy, Hasegawa and Tamiya).
Thank you all
Nelson
Guys
My RA5 is on the way from Hong Kong right now.
I paid €38 for it ,including postage.
It sounds like the importer is ripping you off , not Trumpeter…
As I have said here before, I am sick of getting ripped off by local merchants and the government and shop wherever I can get the best price.
I do not blame Tamiya for an A1 priced at €50 in my LHS - I blame the shop owner.
I can get the same kit in Japan or Hong Kong for approx €22 incl post.
Tell your local LHS you are no longer willing to pay over the odds .
The Vigi costs $94 in the UK - so stop whining, the US still gets everything at heavily discounted prices while everyone else carries the can.
My LHS is seeing less and less of my money, and more people are following me.
If he is not careful, he will no longer have a business to run and the blame will fall squarely at his feet…
Also , I have noticed one major thing in trumpeters favour.
I was reading SAMI this month , and noticed that they have released 2 corrected spitfires.
They also released a corrected wildcat not too long ago.
How many manufacturere have done that - EVER?
Please don’t all shout at once.
All I know is that when the 1/32 F100 is released, my visa will be paying HKD and not €.
While I completely understand that eveyrone has a certain budget, and capitalism will allow you to shop where you so desire, I can’t help but feel for the LHS owner. He has a business/career that revolves around his shops inventory, knowlegde, experience, etc. and all of this goes down the drain because someone in Hong Kong who is not part of our local community can ship it to my door for less money.
Nothing against Hong Kong, or a ny other place for that matter…the shop there is trying to make a buck or two there, as well. But sadly when the last LHS in America closes it’s doors, we will have to wait in the long lines at Wal-Mart for AMT models or order from places in cyber-space where we cannot open the box to inspect the model or get face to face advice from an old-timer/pro.
…[sigh]
My quoting of the price had absolutely nothing to do with “whining” and I have no idea where you get that idea. I also have no idea where you seem to think we in America have it so good when it comes to model prices, stating it as though we have done something wrong. You might start your complaints with your government and their import tariffs and perhaps other taxes.
As for Trumpeter, the prices we pay are not set in the US, they are set in China, and the price of $75 US I quoted was the official Trumpeter MSRP (Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price). Note the word “Manufacturer’s,” they being the one setting the price, and the word “suggested,” meaning that’s the highest Trumpeter believes you can get away with charging and still expect to sell any of these things.
Good old competitive capitalism keeps most mail order firms from charging the full MSRP. Unfortunately, your LHS can’t afford to buy in volume and get the huge discounts that brings with it, and he has to pay high rent and electric bills and local property taxes and license fees and on and on. The neighborhood hobby shop is disappearing from the face of the earth.
Personally, I’m willing to pay a little more to have a place to go hang out and talk models, and deal with a guy willing to make special orders for me without asking for a big deposit up front. When the last LHS closes its doors, this web site will be full of eulogies and complaints about the passing of the LHS, but where were these people who could have supported them while watching them go belly up. I’ll tell you where: They were ordering from discount mail order houses. LHS’s do far more than sell kits and paint, and it’s a shame it’s going to take their extinction for some people to realize that simple and obvious fact.
TOM
Thanks for your comments, sharkskin, they are particularly useful in my situation. I am taking an extended hiatus from modeling owing to relocation, and therefore I haven’t bought any kits, Trumpeter or otherwise, for quite some time. Trumpeter has introduced some tempting offerings in the past year, but I have put off buying anything until my tools and supplies finally catch up to me. If Trumpeter is still on the learning curve, I think I’ll let them learn on someone else’s dime. I applaud their effort in producing subjects that are interesting and wanted by the modeling community, and I will be glad when their learning curve reaches it’s apex. Meanwhile, I will build out of inventory, assuming I can build at all.
Speaking of the learning curve, I would like to ask, where was the learning curve for Accurate Miniatures? Their first offerings were excellent, at least with respect to the plastic parts (there was some curve on instruction sheets and decals, as I recall).
Concerning the cost of molds - the real issue is that it costs the same $500,000 to produce a mold whether the parts are accurate and well designed or inaccurate and poorly designed. So why not accurate?
If I may add another point. I have heard that the people who own the rights to any particular model subject also require a little greasing of the palms to use that subject. That’s another reason the prices are going up. For me, I’ve been on a hunt to replace all the models that were burned,blown up, or shot at as a kid[}:)] It makes me happy when the old Revell/Monogram kits are re-issued. Like one other person mentioned, I wait for the sale on the more expensive models.[:)]
I both agree that we need to support the LHS, at the same time, MSRP in modelling is as real as it is in the electronics & auto world, almost no relationship to the real world price. As per the gentelmen from Ireland, luckymodel.com from HK is listing it for $35 US, with shipping its $52 US. At that price, they are still making a profit - and HK is not like rest of China, cost of living there is as high as NY City in the US. Pricing in many ways are set by the distributers in the US, so they pay less than $35 and definitely less that $17 shipping per box as they ship in builk. So the question becomes how much is the distributor charging and who much the LHS extras are worth to their customers.
Trying to compare the learning curves of Trumpeter and Accurate Miniatures is simply nonsense. The environments are completely different. AM benefitted from years of a well-established business in US, with skilled professionals and trained people. On the other hand, this hobby is entirely new for the Chinese industry, so their accomplishments in this field are remarkable.
Regarding the never-ending Revell-Monogram reissues, I hope this practice does not lead them to the same fate of Hawk, Aurora, MPC, ITC, and so many other US companies that were not up to competition. R-M is fortunate to have a very enterprising subsidiary in German, that has been releasing so many interesting and well-made kits.
Thanks to all
Nelson
My vigi arrived today - whats all the fuss about.
It looks better than the Airfix or Hase kits ever did and I for one am not going to sit down with a scale ruler and count every rivet and gripe over the absolute accuracy of every nook and cranny of the cockpit.
I paid nearly the same amount for the Revell/Hase F4K last year - and believe me that cockpit wasn’t right either - as a matter of fact lots of things were wrong but I have yet to see a bad write up about that.
So I am happy with what I got for my €38 today.
It looks good - and I may even backbate it to a VAH Sqn.
Well done Trumpeter !
Funny, I didn’t put a single ruler to my Viglante kit, nor did I count a single rivet. Nor did I say it was a terrible kit. Didn’t say it anywhere in this thread. Go back and read what I really said before you comment on it.
This turned into a huge debate about the Vigi kit in general, and my original post simply used the Vigilante kit as a single example to warn people to make sure the emperor is wearing clothes before bowing down to him. This Trumpeter-is-the-savior-of-modeling hysteria is premature, and as long as people pay the money and let them (and the distributors) get away with selling less than the highest quality kits at these ridiculous prices, the manufacturers will continue to ignore things like, say, the basic shape of the real airplane, as has already happened more than once.
And after you apply those Trumpeter decals that came with your pricey Vigi, hold it up to a photo of a real one and see if a single one of those decals looks anything like the real thing. I’ll save you the trouble: they don’t. So pretend it’s what it isn’t, or throw in another twenty bucks for AM decals.
But then, when a plastic model manufacturer becomes a sacred cow to some people, the world is in deep trouble. And while I’m at it, certain publications cozying up to these manufacturers like Trumpeter and, dare I say it, MRC/Academy, in order to get advertising revenue, and then editing out legitimate criticism of the kits in their editorial space, reviews in particular, well, I was taught in journalism school my freshman year, and evey year thereafter, that such practices are just down right unethical, dishonest, and cheating people who pay five bucks for a magazine. So for those not yet blinded by the light emitted by the almighty Trumpeter, be sure and read your modeling press very carefully as well, because you might not be getting the facts as they should be presented to you, and as you have a right to have them. I’ve spent twenty years in journalism, and I think I’m pretty savvy at reading between the lines.
TOM
This thread has proved that there are complexities in modeling. You guys that are professionals have a lot to contend with. For me, ignorance is bliss. I just buy’em and build 'em to the best of my ability and hopefully learn something new after each one. I am thankful that those of you that have had problems are willing to share them with us so those of us who don’t have deep pockets can make an make an informed decision. Happy modeling to all. Now…where did you say the clearance aisle was?[:o)]
I have to go with eddie miller on this one. I like buying inexpensive kits and seeing how far I can push them. To me that’s more fun than checking the spark plug gaps. I do agree however if you’re more advanced than I am and are in the realm of the 1/32 mucho dineros kits that they should be worth the money. What “worth the money” means I don’t know. If trumpeter is so young but getting better, their delta quality/delta time should be acceptable. Take my opinions with a grain of salt; I’m not even frequenting the clearance aisles, I’m rooting in the trash bins out behind the store with the wine-os telling me “don’t get that kit, I heard the fuselage is warped. Want some Ripple?” hahaha, little do they know it’s strictly Boone’s Farm or MD 20/20 grape flavored for me.
I’d like to add my two cents worth. My arguement is with the kit reviewers. They say that this is a bad fit or something is wrong but it’s glossed over and there is no sense of outrage at the lack of quality in these high priced kits. Lets be honest and say that for the amount of money people are paying for these kits we should expect perfection. Also with the trend to these astronomical prices how in the world are young people or their economically stressed parents ever going to afford to introduce their children to the hobby. The only way to correct this trend is to vote with your money and purchase kits that give good value for their cost. And the only way we will know which kit is worthwhile is by reading good, honest, impartial reviews in the magazines.
I have a perspective to share as one of the evil Internet shop owners: like all commercial ventures, you have to grow, evolve, mature with the industry. LH stores cannot simply give you a 20% discount because they want to be more “fair” and compete with the online bunch. They can’t afford it! It’s not a question of greed at all. What they can do is evolve their business to step into other areas like railroads, radio control, and so forth, to make up the extra business, and sell their plastic for a bit less. They can also begin selling online like some other successful LHS’ have. The LHS that doesn’t do these things will die, and deservedly so. It is the nature of business, after all, that only the strong (read: shrewd) survive the hard times. Just my two cents. 
Although I have been out of the actual model building hobby for MANY years, I have kept up with the hobby mainly through the Fine Scale Modeler Mag since it first came out. I remember when Tamiya came out with the first $100+ 1/32 F-14 model. I thought that I would never buy a plastic model for that much. Now that I’m older, with a couple extra spare dollars, I went out and bought Tamiya’s 1/32 F-16 and F-15E, just so I can say that I have one of THE best kits out there. I agree with Tom and the others in that if you spend that type of cash you expect that model company to provide the best product they can. I have read the kit reviews of some of the new Trumpeter kits and find it odd that a company provides the parts to make control surfaces move and wings to fold, but the builders are saying that the parts don’t work as advertized. Pose the wings either folded or deployed because the folding mechanism won’t support the wing.
Modelers should write the companies and voice their opinions. Model prices are like everything else today, as time goes by the price of things increase as production costs increase. As long as modelers buy these kits at their high prices, companies will continue to charge the high prices. (This subject is covered in Intro to Economics classes)
Thats my 3 cents worth [8-]
Tom Y.
Cost of living goes up everywhere…keep in mind that the modeling manufacturers have to pay electric bills too. That being said, you don’t always have to be the one to pay those electric bills. Personally I have not been thrilled with Trumpeter’s kits at all. I have the 1/32 N/AW A-10, and the 1/35 Hind. The only thing that gives both of these kits the edge is the size, and the subject…beyond that you have to buy resin to get them up to speed.
Not sure why everyone complains about Tamiya’s high prices when you actually get quality with those kits…not to mention understandable directions…Trumpeters, and Academy directions are like reading heiroglyphics sometimes. Does the cost of a decent translator out weigh the $100 I shell out for one of those kits?! And I don’t believe Trumpeter is paying any licensing fees like Tamiya has had to do. I like Tamiya because I can buy a decent kit for under $30 and be able to build it straight OOB without having to run out and buy resin or PE upgrades for another $50. I still buy PE sets for certain kits, but I prefer to have the choice, and with Trumpeter kits I feel there really is no choice…lol
The blame lies within every nook and cranny of the whole hobby…from the old skool companies putting out the same crap for 30 years, to the hobby shops for only stocking certain mainstream garbage, to the consumer willing to pay for lack of quality, to the reviewers who aren’t subjective enough, to the 1:1 companies charging licensing fees, to the world economy rising. There is no one person to blame in this scenario, it is a problem through out.
Tom, I appreciate your heads up. It is individual modelers who take one for the team that write up the real reviews in my eyes. I don’t even bother reading FSM’s reviews anymore after the blundering of it they make. I’m still upset the only company going to make a 1/48 Saab is Italeri…of all people. I sure hope Tamiya wakes up this year and releases some decent 1/48 aircraft, I’m getting sick of these “clear editions” they keep putting out.