I am building Revell’s kit of PT-109, but the instructions are unclear as to how to paint the model. I am thinking about dark green Camo, but am unsure. Please help!
Use this site’s search engine to find out everything that you would ever want to know about PT-109.
I built the same kit about two years ago. I painted mine like it shows on the box. Gunship gray with a white bottom. I don’t really think it was really accurate though.
Box art is indeed not accurate, but if you like it, hey its your model 
I collected the following info on PT boat colors awhile back, from various sources. My apologies if I do not give the authors proper citations, i just copy/pasted the info from whenever I found it. For my PT109, I used MM Dark green or tropical green cant recall exactly.
Hope this helps:
There are no known color photos of the PT-109. There are color photos of other PT boats later in the war in a green pattern camouflage. The boats were delivered to the Navy at the ELCO plant in painted in an overall gray with a dark gray deck - not bare wood. It has been determined, and generally accepted that the boats in Kennedy’s squadron in the South Pacific were painted overall in theater in a home-brewed green paint. White Ensign’s Colourcoat line of paints includes this color. It is not an olive. If you must choose a paint which you have in your paint box – go with a forest green.The hull bottom was painted in Copperoyd - a trademarked antifouling paint. It was a rusty-red color. Lowe’s Hardware store sells American Tradition paint - their Red Primer is a good match. Out of the bottle - a 60:40 mix of Testors Rust and Insignia Red will get you close.I’ll give you the raft in gray.On to the torpedo tubes … the domed tip on the tube is a protective cap that blows off when the torpedo is launched. It is not the tip of the torpedo. It should be the color of the rest of the boat. However, since these are expendable items they could come from the warehouse in almost any color - grey or another green.The back end of the torped tube wasn’t open. It was a door through which the back of the torpedo was serviced. It was hinged to swing inboard and held in place by a spiderweb of braces and thumbscrews. It should be the hull color.You may not want to hsue the big numbers on the hull. They were applied to the PT boat in President Kennedy’s inagural parade. The myth that they were there sorta stuck. Use only the numbers on the front & sides of the chart room. I’m not sure about a number on the pedestal of the aft 20mm gun at the time of her loss, but they were there when she was put on a tanker to be shipped to the South Pacific as deck cargo.You may want to search through this MB for other threads on PT boats in general and PT109 in specific
White Ensign Models (colour Coats Enamels) # US-29 “tropical Green” hull color and US-14 Norfolk-65A “Anti-fouling Red” for the lower hull.
If you are doing your PT up at the time she was lost, the 37mm on the bow was lashed down with ropes & the life raft was left on the beach,
WEM has a detail set for this PT boat #7205 which replaces some of the kit’s inaccuracies & enhances the kit. Also, WEM #7216 ship mounted 37mm gun
Hth
Just an FYI, depending on how historically accurate you want to be. The deck in the Revell kit is way off. The actual decks were plywood, not planks as with the kit. It is an easy conversion with one sheet of Evergreen styrene. If you really want to go all out the White Ensign photo-etch kit is awesome. It is kit # 7205. It is a little pricey at about $50.00 but you will not be disappointed. There is more detail than Revell could have ever imagined.The best part about this kit is that it is inexpensive, a staple in the hobby that never goes away, and PT boats were modified at the whim of their crews so you can really never go wrong. Have fun and experiment.
Actually the decks were planked. Al Ross, noted author, historian and model pattern maker for Bluejacket Models, has located some photos of the decks of 80’ ELCOs which show that the decks were planked. They just were not planked as grossly as the Revell model shows them. Other photos in Victor Chun’s excellent book on US PT boats during WWII seem to show canvas applied over the fore deck and painted down. (Sort of like a fiberglas application).Sanding the decks down is an easy night’s work. Be sure to backfill the hatches and torpedo tube bolsters with a putty.If you choose to go the Evergreen route be sure to check your references to make sure that you put the correct amount of camber (i.e. crowning) in the decks. They were not flat
Thank you Ed for sharing this with us. I’ve read on other boards about replacing the deck but, nothing ever mentioned about the “crowning” before! And you are correct, the decks are not flat. And, if I may add, PT Boat inc. has some useful info on this in the form of line drawings (I know he does on the hull).
I agree with Ed’s comments about the color. It’s all speculation at this point. However I did correspond with a gentleman who stripped down these boats prior to painting and he had everything down to the primer colors. He was very specific about the color being “forest green” whatever that means. If you look at the boats as they transferred to Rendova they are very dark. My choice is going to be for a faded dark green and I’ll probably rub some dark gray into the paint with pastels. I’ll have to experiment with that first. Speaking with Dick Keresey who was the skipper of the 105 boat, he thought that the boats were gray up until he gave up his boat at Rendova. Take a look at the movie PT-109. They were very careful with boat details and one of the crew actually was in the movie. The boats are a dark green with gray tones. So that may give us some clues. The life raft most likely was gone or lashed to the top of the day cabin. The crew had scrounged a small boat that they used for getting around while at base. The mast is most definitely gone at the time of the 109 sinking and probably was never there from the time Kennedy had the boat.If you’re modeling it at the time of the 109 sinking remember that the port depth charge was blown off when the forward port torpedo launched accidently in high seas. I would keep that in mind when installing the port toe rail and think about the repair that would have been done. It will make for a nice detail to have a slightly newer shade of paint in that area of repair. I’m curious about the torpedo covers. I’ve seen two types. One that has large screws holding it in place and another that has a piece of triangular shaped metal held in place by three wires. It doesn’t look to me like these would blow off. If anyone has any history on this please let me know.
This is a very good question Dave, I’ve heard the torp tube covers were “blown off” when the torp was launched but, in “PT Boats in Action” (on page 15) shows 2 pics. 1) with cover attached & states (77’ Elco) “Prior to going into action, the torpedoman would remove the cover to prepare the torp for firing.” The other pic is without the cover & trained to the outside position for firing. showing the nose of the torp.
PT Boat finish…1. No, the boat would not have had the gray bottom. No clue where that color scheme came from and I’ve seen no photographic evidence to support it. 2. It would not have a boot stripe. Simply a antifouling red bottom (redish brown) and whatever color above deck. That said the boats sat in oily water. Typically they would have a stain along the water line. This can be duplicated with an oily wash of some sort. Just don’t over do it. 3. The mufflers were typically painted to match the boat. So the bottom halves are antifouling red and the top matches the boat.
What I’m planning on doing is taking some ground black pastel chalk and a very stiff brush and running a narrow line along the water line. Rub it out along the length of the line with a cotton ball and I think that would do the trick. I think this will produce better results than if I tried using a liquid stain.
PS about the decks the Elco boats were so perfect even at 1/20 th scale no plank lines would be seen such as the 109…higgins pts had poor finished decks and plank lines would be easy to see. The deck has a visable curve to help shed water off the sides,as for weathering the boats really looked like junk after a few months,anything that was metal had severe rust(except guns)see the links also at Mosquito boats web pages
The PT-109 is generally believed to have been green all over, with the exception of the hull bottom which was Copperoid (a red/brown anti-fouling paint). You’re right - no color photos. There are some photos taken while the boat was on a tanker transporting her to the South Pacific (grey with dark decks) and one or two distance shots. The boats were repainted once in theatre.Your out-of-the-bottle paint selection is Colourcoats by White Ensign Models, either Tropical Green or MTB Green (can’t remember which one right off the top of my head
The 109 was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green with a 65-A Anti-fouling Red bottom
When lost, PT-109 was in overall Tropical Green, a field-mixed colour that we have available in our Colourcoats enamels as item US 29. Have a look at Martyn Robey’s build of the Revell kit
It depends, as it was painted several schemes between completion and loss. The original specs book for the 103 series boats called for Navy Gray (5) for the hull and Dark Gray (5D) for the main deck and above. Photos of 103 and 117 running trials bear this out. As the 109 was built between these two boats, she most likely carried this paint scheme initially. At some point between being placed in service and being transported to the Pacific, she was repainted at least once. Photos of her on the JOSEPH STANTON at the time she was being transported to the Pacific show what appears to be a single color overall. Contemporary photos of 107 and 105 show the same scheme. The shade appears darker than Navy Gray (5) and lighter than Dark Gray (5-D), so it may have been Ocean Gray (5-O). The earliest reference to a green scheme that I have seen comes from Donovan’s book PT 109, in which he describes her as a “…dark forest green…”. While this is clearly not an official name for the actual color, it does give you a basic idea of her color just prior to being lost. The original specs book for the 103 series, specs books for two later series, and a BuShips Allowance List for PTs all specify copper bottom paint. No mention is made of red in any of these documents. As John Snyder mentioned, you’ll find the colors you need in the ColourCoats line produced by White Ensign Models (WEM). Al Ross
I’m working on the 109 as well and I noticed that Martyn’s had the props painted with the anti-fouling red. Is that the correct color for them? Perhaps we’re looking at different photos. Those on the WEM site have a metallic look about them, which would be correct. The real props were aluminum-manganese-bronze, so they would be a dark reddish brown color.
Looking at photos (the basis for my beliefs) it just appears to me that the color of the 109 is darker than the tropical green. The 109 was sunk shortly after relocating to Rendova. I’m including a photo of PT-107 taken at the time it was in route to its new base at Rendova. This would be the same color as PT-109. These two boats were in the same squadron and would have the same resources available. I’ve also included a photo of PT-103 which was also taken at exactly the same time which looks the same as 107 if not a darker photo.I acknowledge that what I’m about to say is very unscientific. I took the photo of Robey’s boat and converted it to a black and white photo. Comparing the two the 107 looks much darker. It looks like a darker green with lots of scuffing and weathering. I have posted in this forum some modeling tips for the 109. These are based on what I pulled out of Donovan’s book PT-109 and the two known photos of 109 when Kennedy was in command. If you have trouble finding them let me know.I exchanged emails with a gentleman that removed the paint from PT-105 after the 109 sank and he told me that the color was “forest green” whatever that means. green to me means dark green much like what is on the Revell box except with more weathering. Just for grins I’ve thrown in 's version of the 109. A member of the 109 crew played a roll in this movie and was a technical advisor. Is this the right color? It looks a lot like John’s MTB Green. Darker still I think. I’ve also tossed in a photo of JFK in the cockpit of the 109 which you can find all over the internet. We’ll never know for sure what the actual color looked like in the field and sorry if I’m just confusing the issue more. John and Al’s information is extremely well researched and you’re not going to be wrong following their advice. I’m still undecided on what to do about the finish paint on my model. I keep hoping that some miracle photo will appear but I doubt it. I’ll probably end up going with some variation of dark green or perhaps MTB green. I’m building a 1/48 105 boat so maybe both. Best of luck
Some hints on making a an accurate PT-109 from the Revell kit after Kennedy took command…
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PT-109 either had the mast in the lowered position or it didn’t exist at all. When Kennedy got it the boat was well used. Photos of the 109 clearly show no mast. Speaking with the skipper of PT-105 this is what he thought.
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PT-109 had roll off depth charges forward of the front pair of torpedo tubes. Kennedy had a torpedo accident with the port (left) forward torpedo. It accidentaly launched and blew the port depth charger right threw the deck. The deck was repaired but never replaced leaving only the depth charger on the starboard side of the boat. It would be accurate to build it either way. You will need to either buy them after market or scratch build them. You can find photos of them at some of the links provided earlier.
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The boat should be painted a dark green. The original color was created mixing black and yellow paint. There are not accurate records of what the color really looked like.
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The kit decals are not good. But DO NOT use the large letters that they show going on the bow. The 109 didn’t have that. The only numbers are on the starboard turret, the gun mount on the stern and the front of the chart house.
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Don’t put up the rope stanchions on the fore deck. These were considered dangerous for the crews in combat and were stowed and never used.
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Don’t worry about the anti-tank gun that was lashed on the deck just prior to the boat being sunk. There’s really nothing available in this scale and it wasn’t there long enough to worry about.
These are the basic fixes for a beginer. There are more that can be done if you are a more advanced modeler. For example White Ensign Models makes a nice photo etch set for the boat. There are a lot of other minor modifications that can be done to make it more accurate that you can pick up on by looking at photos at the sites mentioned above.
Now, if you want to build the boat prior to Kennedy as it appeared coming out of the factory, do everything I mentioned above except put up the mast, paint the boat a two toned gray (top surfaces like the deck being darker) put up the rope stanchions and forget the depth charges.
Another hint. Do a Google search for PT-109 and select images. You’ll see a lot of real bad interpretations there, but you will find some photos of the real boat.
Lindberg PT-109 article in FSM? September, 1994 I have it right in front of me
The standard U.S. Navy enlisted man’s working uniform in World War II consisted of a light blue shirt and darker blue dungarees (i.e., blue jeans). The officer’s working uniform conisted of a khaki shirt, khaki pants, and a black necktie - though I doubt very much that the c/o of a PT boat in the Solomons wore his tie very often. The navy helmet was painted a medium grey. Lifejackets could be found in several colors, but I suspect a dull, rather dark blue - about the same shade as the dungarees - would be most likely in this case.The numerous PT boat experts here in the Forum may shoot me down; if so, by all means believe them rather than me. But I think the above is about right.
The 109 is said to have been either overall Navy Green or Tropical Green, with an Copperoyd colored bottom. Copperoyd can be substituted with White Ensign Models’ (even though this color was NEVER used on wooden hulls) 65-A Anti-fouling Red. Some former crew members have said that she remained in an overall grey … but, I am of the school of thought that she wore Navy Green.
As for the uniforms worn by the crews - that other gentleman has the right idea
That’s the logo for ALL PTs, not just PT-109. It has blue water, white wavecrests, a silver torpedo and the mosquito (for mosquito boats) was grey, yellow wings black legs, black outline - or something to that effect.
Thanks to everyone who posted something. Special thanks to JMart for the obvious effort put forth to help. Thanks!
What do you need to know sir?
Well, I, for one, would like to know what the conclusion was as to what color the 109 was at the time of her sinking. After wading through that collection of past posts, I’m more confused than ever. If anyone knows, I believe it will be you, PTCNHR. Thanks!
Well, …
Her own crew from that time disagree on what color she was. I have four letters (all hand-written) from McMahon, Kowal, and I’m sorry, I don’t remember the other two gentlemen’s names, they escape me at this time, two say she was overall gray and two say she was overall Olive Drab (YES, OLIVE DRAB) …
But, she was probably painted overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green. I’d go with the Navy Green camp though, but that’s me.
Does this help?
Garth
Yes, Garth. Thank you.
Lee
Not a problem sir. I like to help people and I do TRY to help.
All speculation on what the actual color of PT 109 was at the time of her sinking was almost certainly answered by the posting, on the PT Boats, Inc. message board some time ago, of several Kodachrome color photos from a series taken in the spring/summer of1943 at “Searlesville,” the PT base in the Russell Islands, by Ken Prescott, PT 61’s skipper.
The subject of the photos is, of course, PT 61 (which is gray), but Prescott stated he was fairly certain the boat to starboard of the 61 in that color photo series was the 109, as the two boats often moored next to each other in the Russells. Very little - only bits and pieces - of the 109 can be seen in three of the photos, but it’s green.
As proof of this, the PT seen moored alongside to port of the 109 in the well-known (b&w) “JFK in the cockpit” photos is the 61, further proved by another (b&w) photo of the 61 alongside to port of PT 109, most probably part of the “JFK in the cockpit” series of photos taken at the same time, which clearly shows the 61’s boat number on her charthouse.
In any case, the green color of the boat to starboard of PT 61 in the color photo series - which Prescott believes is the 109 - can be seen, and shows the aft part of her port hull, deck (lighter-colored, and much-scuffed), and torpedo tube in one shot, her port torpedo tubes (with bronze-colored torpedo warheads showing) in another, and in a third, the tops of the aft portion of the port side cockpit splash shield, dayroom canopy, bare-chested crewman (possibly Andrew Kirksey), port aft twin-.50 turret with canvas splash skirt, and the top of her 20mm limiting rail and 20mm gun.
In several of the other photos in this series, parts of an unknown, green-painted 77’ Elco PT can be seen to port of the 61, and the green color, which matches the green of the believed-to-be 109 to starboard, can be clearly seen on the 77’ boat’s depth charges, smoke generator, and ventilators.
The PT Boat, Inc.'s message board has many, many pages of past threads, and if I can find the exact page those photos are on, I’ll post it here. Meanwhile, I think some or all of those PT 61 color photos are on the Internet. Just Google “PT 61” and you’ll probaby find them.
Drew,
I know that David Waples would disagree with me and take me to task for my belief, … but I do not believe that boat in those photos is the 109. I don’t know why sir, but it’s just my opinion.
I have those photos (I THINK) on my external hard drive, email me later on and ask me to email them to you as I’m not at all comfortable with inserting posting photos in my posts …
Garth
OK, Garth…what is your reason to believe that the green 80’ Elco to starboard of the 61 in those photos is not PT 109?
– Drew
Well, just my gut feeling Drew …
It seems to me that people feel that every unidentified Elco eighty-footer in the Solomons HAS TO BE the 109.
How do we know that the 109 was ever moored next to the 61?
It said that one of the men we see on board the unknown eighty footer was one of the 109’s crew. OK. Fine. How do we know, that, IF it’s one of the 109 crew, that he was not board the boat visiting a friend.
Also, it is well known that, in the forward areas, personnel were put into slots on crews in a ‘as needed’ basis to fill out crews. Additionally, boat crews also took other boats out if their boat was in drydock. So, if we see one man we KNOW to be assigned to a boat on another boat in a photo doesn’t mean that it was THAT boat, UNLESS we see a boat number.
Ok, Garth…
“How do we know the 61 was ever moored next to the 109?”
#1) Because Ken Prescott, skipper of the 61, has been quoted as saying the 61 and the 109 moored next to each other at the “Searlesville” PT base in the Russell islands, where that series of photos was taken, and;
#2) The 61 is the 77’ Elco PT to port of the 109 in the photo published on page 89 of the book Collision With History - The Search for John F. Kennedy’s PT 109 by Robert D. Ballard. You can see the 61’s boat number on her charthouse quite clearly in that photo, which was taken from PT 109’s foredeck. That particular photo also shows how very close the 109’s port depth charge was in relation to it’s port forward torfpedo tube – but I digress.
OK. Let’s review. One definitive statement by the 61’s skipper, and one definitive piece of photographic evidence proves the 61 and the 109 “ever” moored together.
The speculation that the green 80’ Elco PT moored to starboard of the 61 in Prescott’s color photos is the 109 is obviously just that – speculative – but an educated guess, using the known facts, makes it a pretty good guess that the green boat is (probably) PT 109, in my estimation.
Um … I believe that the boat next to the 109 behind Kennedy in that famous shot is the 59. Or, so I’ve been told …
Additionally, if you were a PT skipper, and liked Kennedy - wouldn’t you go around saying, "Oh sure, my boat was sometimes moored with Jack’s boat. Great conversation starter and a great way to impress the girls …
That’s no slight to Mr. Prescott Drew, just an observation … AND MY OWN OPINION …
But, hey … what do I know?
What if what if what if…
What if pigs flew and monkeys typed novels.
Jeez guys!
Look at the preponderence of evidence.
The boats were repainted green at some point in time in the Pacific.
109 was well used before Kennedy got her. She had to be refurbished prior to returning to service.
Part and parcel of her “refurbishment” would have been a coat of paint. See above for the color of that paint.
Who moored next to who is always conjecture, BUT if there is a photo of one boat next to another? Really? Seriously? How is that debateable?
Crew crew crew. Ok there’s a shot of what is believed to be one of 109’s crew on a boat. That boat is moored next to a boat we know has been moored next to the 109 before. Ummmm…what if what if what if…?
Now present the circumstances to a jury…
Then, I’ll go out on a limb here:
In the grand scheme of things does any of this really matter? It’s a model, build it well, build it like you want, have fun.
G
No Garth, the boat behind JFK in the famous shots of him in the cockpit of 109 is almost certainly the 61, not the 59, due to the positioning and disposition of that boat at the time those cockpit shots were made and the matching one of the 61 taken from the 109’s foredeck in the Ballard book.
The 77’ Elco to port of the 109 in the “cockpit” shots, even though little of it can be seen, has it’s starboard cockpit coaming hatch opened, and so does the 61 in the larger, more complete shot of it in the Ballard book in which you can see the 61’s number on the charthouse. Although this was typical for the 77’ boats (hatch opened) to let air and light in, it helps lead to the deduction that the 77-footer in the background in the “JFK in the cockpit” shots is the 61 – and that the green 80-footer in the color Prescott photos may well be the 109.
To me, an additional educated guess is that the “JFK in the cockpit” photos and the shot of the 61 alongside in the Ballard book were taken at the same time.
Since JFK took over the 59, oversaw her conversion to a gunboat, and skippered her for a while, I think whoever told you the 77’ Elco behind JFK in the 109 “cockpit” shots was the 59 was simply lumping the two JFK boats together and assumed JFK’s second command – the 59 – was that 77-footer behind him in the 109 cockpit photos. I’m satisfied it was the 61.
Looks like we’ll always disagree about just about anything PT 109 -related (the mast question, Ballard’s found torpedo tube, now this), and I get your point about the possibility of someone boasting “yeah, I was moored next to JFK’s PT 109 all the time,” but – this is somewhat dismissive of and insulting to Mr. Prescott, no? If he says the 61 often moored next to the 109 in the Russells, I’ll take him at his word.
I certainly couldn’t get a murder conviction in court on this evidence, and obviously, it’s still speculative, but to me – it’s definitely “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
EXACTLY my point!
G
I’ll add one more thing regarding color.
Look at the photos of the 105, 107, 109 and 110 aboard the Staunton prior to shipping to the Pacific. It’s very clear the chart houses and day cabins were hastily repainted the same color gray as the hull. You can see overspray of the haze gray on the decks, and minimal if no masking around the boats numbers, which are clearly white on a dark grey.
Now fast forward to the shot of Kennedy and his crew posed in front of the charthouse. Here the boat is:
#1 in the Pacific.
#2 Painted an overall dark color.
#3 No where do you see evidence of the numbers being painted around. They are painted directly on the boats primary color. This means the boat has again been painted and the primary color almost has to be dark green of some sort. I say this due to the directives issued by the Navy and the necessary refurbishment.
G