Welp, …
Bye y’all …
For gosh sakes Garth don’t bail now! [:D] Let’s hear some more.
All the above was posted good naturedly in the spirit of discussion/argument/discourse.
We need ya pard, I’ve read your work and you are the “researcher emeritus” in this field.
I just am as passionate as anyone about the PT saga, that and 30+ years of police work keeps me on my toes. [;)]
G
I built this a long time ago and found a great article on the subject. However I can’t seem to find it, so I’ll do the best I can. This is what I remember:
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The radar mast and flag pole were rarely up in combat
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The decals shown in the instructions are wrong. The 109 decals should be placed on the gun turrets and the front wheelhouse part (it actually says this correctly in the instructions). The PT 109 decals that go at the front of the boat were not there.
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As said earlier, the bottom should be painted with the antifouling red, and the rest of the boat should be the greenish color.
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The front railing was optional, and rarely used.
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The lifeboat was almost certainly gone.
That’s all I remember. If I find the article, I’ll post it. I have no idea what sources the guy used, but he SEEMED pretty smart. [;)]
Well,
It’s like this G …
Apparently to most who I hear from? And, from one “expert” in particular, I don’t know Jack about PT boats and apparently, to Him, I cannot have an opinion on something and express it … according to him - my opinion that the 80 footer in the picture isn’t the 109 is mindless crap … so I will therefore stop posting anywhere.
What I said was merely an opinion, I never presented it as Gospel (as people take whatever He says as). It’s funny, years ago, that same expert cautioned me to never to take anything what a vet says as fact without proof … and now, we’re going to take what a vet said as Gospel? Hmmm, interesting to say the least.
Let’s review what is known…
Yes, I’ll stipulate that there is a photo of the 61 next to 109 in Ballard’s book. I’m not arguing that point - why? I can’t … photos do not lie.
My point is …
How do we even know that, that photo and the ones which Drew is referring to were taken on the same day, in the same location?
Can we prove that 100%
Hatches are opened in the same manner and the 61 had a chip missing someplace? You mean to tell me that a crew could not have a hatch opened in the same manner on two different occaisons? That the 61 wouldn’t have something repaired or repainted if it wasn’t needed to be?
Think about it? PT boats in forward areas with limited resources? Oh, dear, that’s chipped - let’s repair it …
A man who RESEMBLES one of the 109’s crew? Well, then, that seals it. He LOOKS like him, so therefore it’s the 109 … I’m sure if you went back in time and became an observer at Tulagi, that you would find any number of different men who RESEMBLED each other, especially where men had basically the same hair cuts, wore similar outfits and had lost weight and all that.
Within the past three years, I came across a photo of my father’s SC-699 and there was a man on it who LOOKED exactly how my father looked back then, and has been since proven not to be my father. So, we now have a poor photo of a man on board an unknown PT who LOOKS like one of the 109’s crew … so, therefore, ergo and towit, that boat IS the 109. Case closed.
Then, Mr. Prescott SAYS it was … Well, there you go people, another nail in my coffin. Mr. Prescott SAYS it is. How do we know that he was not confused, that the photos Drew is referring to were taken at the same time as the one in Ballard’s book? By the same man, by the same camera. We don’t know. We can’t know. And, we aren’t supposed to take what a vet says as fact without proof.
SO, IN MY OPINION (and remember - it’s an OPINION) there is not enough evidence to prove to me that it is the 109. I’m sorry … there’s not. If there was an “09” or “109” seen in the photos, then - yes, I’d admit that I’m wrong here.
I cannot be faulted for having and expressing an OPINION – and an EDUCATED OPINION at that and I cannot see how stating an OPINION is presenting mindless crap.
Ballard says that one torpedo tube on the ocean floor IS the wreck of the 109 and he has discovered it, … where’s the debris field cone of the engines, guns, other torpedoes, 20mm … the steering wheel, props, shafts, rudders, instruments?
One torpedo tube makes up an whole wreck? Isn’t that presenting mindless crap?
I based my OPINION on what I saw, know and all that, it did not come out of thin air …
Hey Garth,
Take a few deep breaths and relax. We know that you know your stuff. Sometimes people are just not receptive to alternate opinions and nothing one says will convince them otherwise.
Recently in the aircraft forum, a gentleman was asking about weapons to load on his EF-111A. When it was politely pointed out that the EF-111A was an Electronic Warfare variant of the F-111 family and was unarmed and it was not appropriate to put ordnance on it (and this is fact, not opinion), he went on the offensive, telling people they were trying to be smart etc. and posted about a dozen or so photos of different marks of the F-111 loaded with weps. When it was pointed out that they were different variants, not the EF-111A, he became abusive, stating that they were all the same basic airframe and came out of the same factory, so they could all carry weps, including his EF. The abusive posts were removed, but the sanitised thread is still there.
Frustrating perhaps, but not something worth falling on your own sword for.
Cheers,
Phil
Garth, thank you for the reply, a good argument is what it’s all about!
I fully recognize your points and agree with most.
Ballard cannot claim to have definatively found the 109 from a single torpedo tube, yet time/location/debris would seem to indicate he did. Preponderence of evidence, but we will never know for sure until that one “eureka piece” is located .
Having been a Marine I fully agree with your “chipped” assertation, yet we know the 109 had to be refurbished. Again Preponderence of evidence.
As to who moored next to who? Who cares? 67 years is a long time. I for one cannot remember last nights dinner. Case in point:
My best friend, a retired Gunny, called last month. He said “I found your boonie hat, I’ll bring it to you when we come to Vegas next month.”
I couldn’t remember ever having one, much less why Bruce would have it. Photos do not show I ever wore it, but there it is, with my name inside. We spent the better part of two years together as grunts, and shared most everything. It’s been 36 years and I cannot for the life of me remember that damn hat.
Anyway, true experts are few and far between. Opinions are valid if made on logical evaluations.
Come on Garth I keep learning more and more! [:D]
G
Welp, Gunny …
I cannot publicly say why it APPEARS that I am so thin-skinned these days…
But suffice it to say? With all I’ve been dealing with (in my private life) as well as being slammed hard by that expert who shall remain nameless, for two books, one slam was a hit below the belt and totally uncalled for, it’s understandable I’m thin-skinned right now and don’t feel all that confident to “defend” my stances, so I will just back off and concentrate on what’s truly important, … ME.
Hi, as I have posted earlier,in another posting,I am the builder of a P.T. known as the “TULAGI TERROR” After all these years I don,t remember the boat,s number.I do know she was equipped VERY similiar to 109,in that she had a field gun on the AFTER deck to replace the hardware removed by battle.This boat, according to her engineer ,who now is on “permanent patrol”, she was a very mottled green with the base color when new being a somewhat brighter green in shade than o.d. !The blotching came from exposure to the elements and numerous repaints,when possible. All I know is that for a time she operated out of RENDOVA. If in company of 109 ,I don,t think anyone nowadays knows. She had two “k” guns on each side and GOD knows what else! I chose to use LINDBERG,S kit as a base for mine.BY THE WAY, In a book I got from the library entitled" U.S. PATROL TORPEDO Boats in W.W.2 1939-1945 by T.GARTH CONNELLY there is some pictures of an ELCO with what appears to be a HIGGINS type stemThis in fact is identified as an ELCO. It,s not an 80 footer ,rather a 77 footer! The large LINDBERG model has the 77 hull with an 80 footer,s deckhouses and equipment !!! I have corrected the stem to a version of the 80 boat,but I am trying to recreate the “TULAGI TERROR” in 1/72 scale.I desperately need three PACKARD ENGINES so I don,t have to scratch build them! Mr.Connelly is a very avid and knowledgeble man on these boats.I have managed to acquire ALL his books on these as well as the GERMAN “schnellboote”! I am certainly glad for folks with his kind of love of subject. good luck to any of you doing either boat and watch those narrow channels,okay? tankerbuilder
All too true Garth, all too true!
G
Hi Geoffrey,
Wow. I just read through this email string. I hope this didn’t jut suck the passion out of building this kit for you. I just completed my Revell 1/72 PT-109 model after many many years of listening and asking questions about this specific boat. I think I’ve constructed a fairly accurate interpretation of PT-109. I added a link of my completed model that I shared with my PT Boat family and once I finish the base and case I’ll post some information at this site too. If I can answer any questions for you I’ll be glad to do so.
Best of luck
Dave
http://www.ptboats.org/cgi-local/sitenetbbs/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=1847&pg=1&sc=20&x=0
WOW, nice long read!
I’m looking at getting the materials together for this boat.
I realize this thread is almost 2 years old but anything new about this boat? Color, details, accessories.
It is my understanding that the 109 was either in an overall Navy Green or Tropical Green scheme, with a Copperoyd anti-fouling bottom paint and her rudders were a natural metal color.
Garth
After a lot of research, and consulting with the folks at WEM, I came to the conclusion that WEM’s colourcoats Tropical Green was the way to go. You will never get total agreement on what color the 109 was, certainly not at the time of her loss. The boats seem to have been painted in a home brewed camoflage color once they were in theater, being shipped from Elco in grey. I’ve attached a photo of my 109 in Tropical Green to give you an idea of what it will look like:
Hope this helps.
Bob
sir what did you use for the fwrd deck Oldsmobile built 37.mm cannon…good contrast
The 37 mm cannon came from White Ensign. I’d suggest you take a look at FreeTime Hobbies, I believe they should have one in stock. I hope this helps.
Bob
Sorry, it finally dawned on me that you were asking about the paint I used on the 37 mm. It was WEM Colourcoats Olive Drab.
Bob
I was reading some encyclopedia articles and found that the United States Navy PT boats in the Pacific Theatre (Europian) were painted gray. Any others were painted green. So the 109 should be grey.
The 109 was in the Pacific, Europe is not located anywhere near the Pacific Ocean. [whstl]