Just asking for clarification, what do you mean by “most successful”. Combat record? Production? Foreign sales? Length of service? [:)]
Like many others, I’m sick of the P-51, never my fave plane, and also tired of hearing how we never would have won WW II without it.
Oleander;
I completely agree with you how many times can you model a BF-109, Supermarine Spitfire, P-51. In my collection all I want is to have a plane modeled in a scheme in a spacific theater of that time i.e. B-24D painted Dessert Tan upper Neutral Gray lower for MTO theater (Plosti Raider), and a B-24D O.D. upper N.G. lower with Sperry Ball Turret (ETO), B-24D O.D. upper N.G. lower tunnel guns (PTO), B-24D N.G. upper Gloss White lower (PB4Y-1 or U.S. Coastal Defense Command) that’s all like having a P-51D in O.D. upper & N.G. lower, then have a P-51D in BMF (1 for ETO and 1 for PTO)
but when it comes to planes I hate I can’t say I HATE IT, I say I HAVE NO INTREST OF IT that’s better then saying HATE IT, like the MiG 29’s & SU-27’s they look like an F-15 or F/A-18 not to intresting look from Russia like their past aircraft but I’ll build them anyway but not in great numbers
Real plane…The Cutlass…the Gutless Cutlass…no way to polish a turd!
Kits…any kit with ambiguous instructions…if the fit is poor, okay I have stock in Squadron Green, but at least make it easy to figure out how to get the flaming parts to the point of sasying it is just bad fit.
Good Day,
Opinion of aircraft isnt derogatory to anyone, but one gentleman I think was referring to them as Frogs in another post really isnt very nice. I was not referring to aircraft opinion being derogatory, but certain comments and negative slang certainly is not very mature.
Regarding our other friend who asked for some examples of the success of French aircraft, I dont have the exact numbers, but beyond the F-15, mostly 80-0 kill ratio vs the syria air force it can definetly be argued that considering the success of the Mirage during the 1967 and 1973 wars in the middle east, and earlier wars when mysteres and vautours were used, that French aircraft have been some of the most successful aircraft of the second half of the 20th century. I am aware that very few aircraft types really had the opportunity to be a a full combat situation since the 1960’s, but with the conflicts that did exist the Mirage was the most successful at the times when they were outmatched and required despirately to keep the country alive. They basically saved israeli, and while the success of the F-15 as well as french planes are due mostly to the skills of their pilots, as far as kill ratio and effectiveness, those French jets saved israel on more than one occasion. It was so successful that Egypt bought them afterwards in order to beat the israelis…
Cheers
Milan
I never cared for the early jet fighter, say early korea. I have actually built a couple to compliment my B-36 (which I haven’t built yet), but they were more of an experiment for BMF.
In the Six-Day War, the IAFs strategy was responsible for their success more so than the aircraft used.
As far as the '73 AI War, both Israel and Syria never released the real numbers for air to air losses. Academics have determined that Israel probably had the upper hand with a 2.25-3:1 ratio. This is not stellar by any standard. When compaired to the F-15, which currently holds a 104-0 ratio, it doesn’t seem successful at all. [2c]
Yeah the mirage was a decent jet, But wasn’t it hard to get parts for them after 1967. For israel that is.
I have to agree with Milan, use of derogatory expressions are not becoming in these forums and we should desist from using them. You may not like French aircraft, but refering to them as Frog is just out and out rude.
I’ve been avoiding this forum, as I have yet to find a aircraft I don’t like on some level. Sometimes I find them beautiful, and sometimes ugly, but I’ve yet to drum up such a strong emotion as “hate”. I’ll chime in with the crowd though! Sure I’ve built them, and sure I’ll build them in the future, but enough already with the P-51 and Fw-190. We’ve enough kits, versions and AM pieces to last three lifetimes!
Ah, I have this baby on hand just for these posts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSK-Mielec_M-15_Belphegor
Yeah, epithets shouldn’t be used here. I went back, read the post, and I don’t think he was referring to the company. I might not like French aircraft or tanks, but I’m not going to be so crude about expressing it. Just like Yank is actually derogatory, but here in the US we just think that’s what Brits call us. Not that everytime some calls an American, Yank, it is meant as an insult.
There’s the winner!
Ok ok guys, you got me. Hate is a strong word (lack of sleep, remember?). What I was trying to get at with my original post was actual planes that you don’t like. Something that you look at and think, “Why the heck is that thing so popular?!” For me it’s the P-40. I just don’t like the looks of it. What actual planes don’t you like (not kits, that’s a topic for another thread[;)])
As far as the forum member who made the innapropriate comment, shame on you. Take your slander somewhere else. Or step up and apologize. Saying things like that only makes you fulfill the stereotype that americans are ignorant and scoff at the rest of the world. [soapbox]
Guys we’ve gotten some real good responses here, keep em comming!
Three points,
Yank might be rude, I dont know, but it depends in context…but Frog isnt much better, and I assure you if you wanted a headbutt thats the way to get it. Not sure what he was referring to, but in any case not a proper way to refer to anyone or their planes…you will never find a French person who is ok with being called a Frog, nor should u…
Strategy was a great compliment to the success of the Mirage, but in all air combat situations some planes are technically better than other, but when it comes down to it some planes make history and save countries and societies, others do not. The F-15 has such a high kill ratio because techniques perfected with Mirages were used in past wars by the time the F-15’s came out, as well their opponents were severely outclassed. In 1983 in Syria, and in the Guf Wars, they were a complete generation above their counterparts and had a more or less perfect strategy, so an 80-0 kill ratio came from strategy as well. This strategy came out of those past conflicts as admitted by many in the israeli airforce and in interviews with General Schwartzkopf. There is no doubt the F-15 is a better aircraft, but if its wasnt for the Mirages Israeli argueably would not exist now, nor strategy after 73’ on how not to get killed by SAM’s exist. Many mirages were lost to new SAM technologies, as these planes were fighter bombers…so who knows how good the ratio is, but its a remarkable aircraft and they saved the country, like modern spitfires! They are both great aircraft, but strategy and context cannot be excluded either because in the end its not what is the best team, but how they played when they had to.
With regards to statistics, no one knows exactly how many losses existed, but the fact that Israeli planes dominated does give creedence. As well, the F-15 is a wonderful plane…we must agree to agree on this… 
With regards to not getting parts after for their Mirages, well, alot of politics(Israel was to receive the Mirage 5, but France sold it to Iran instead!!) so Israeli took those Mirage III airframes, created the IAI company and created the Kfirs…
I think the only way to tell, if u take a number of Mirages with good strategy and a number of F-15’s with varied strategy, who would win? I think the ones with the best plan and pilots…
Cheers
Milan
And I have these:
Hurel-Dubois HD-321 (look at that nosewheel fairing!) http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Braas/4479L.jpg
and
Transavia Airtruk http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0578372/L/ (Edit: Appears I can’t hotlink the photo)
I didn’t want to seem like an appologist for the inappropriate comment. I was just making a point. Frog isn’t a very common term in the US. I’d say three out of four would have no idea that it refers to French people. So don’t be thinking we all think that way.
We could debate the Mirage and other French aircraft until we die, and neither of us would change our minds. The bulk of the aircraft the F-15 destroyed were older Mig-21s and 23s, but it proved more than a match for the Mig-25 which was of the same generation of aircraft. I will finish by saying that the F-15 has also shot down eight Mirage F1s and nine Mig-29s, both of which are the same generation of aircraft.
Tatics and pilots matter, but having the better plane can make a big difference. This is whay it’s the business of the Department of Defense to ensure it’s aircraft are always a generation better. The F-22 is the next step.
The plane I hate the most…The F-18 Hornet and Super Hornet, they ain’t all that great.
It probably is not regarded as a popular aircraft , but I loathe the Fairey Battle. It was a completely outclassed and incompetent warplane and far too many good men lost their lives in the early part of the war making desperate attacks on the Germans using these deathtraps to no discernible effect . It may have contributed as a trainer , but I have never bought a kit of it , will not ,and wouldn’t build one if given it .Sorry if this sounds over dramatic , but there’s too much blood on it.
What?
Phil_H doesn’t like the Transavia PL-12 Airtruk? That thing is so ugly it’s way cool! Imagine seeing one for the first time…you’d NEVER think that thing could fly - but it appears that oddities DO abound and indeed exist…I understand your feelings, Phil. It’s not pretty.
Granted, the Airtruk is probably one of the ugliest things that was ever given wings, but hey - it was cool enough to be included in a Mad Max movie…can’t be all that bad…
The Lockheed L-188 Elactra mainly because I spent 9 yrs fixing fuel leaks and wing cracks on that glass winged peice of junk.