Speaking of Bong, I got this email from Tom Robinson a member of the B-29 Superfortress Yahoo group today:
On this day in 1942…
Second Lieutenant Richard Bong loops the loop around
the central span of the Golden Gate Bridge in San
Francisco, California, while flying a P-38 Lightning.
He then flies up Market Street at low altitude causing
a local woman’s laundry to be blown off the clothes line.
Bong is ordered to report to Major General George C. Kenney,
Commanding General 4th Air Force, and Kenney orders him to
re-wash the woman’s laundry as punishment. Kenney goes on
to command the Fifth Air Force, and later Far East Air
Forces, in the Southwest Pacific Area. Bong is later
assigned to the Fifth Air Force and becomes the U.S.'s
top fighter ace of all time with 40 Japanese aircraft
shot down.
If we HAVE to STICK with your three choices, I will say this. Hartmann did not get into it until 43, the Russian FIGHTERS he saw were not all obsolete. The La series were even or superior to the FW-190 at the lower levels that they fought at and the 109 was worse at those levels than the FW. Bong faced very maneuverable fighters flown by suspect pilots and the fighters he faced could take much less punishment than any German or Russian plane. Gabreski was of Polish heritage. That means he was pretty damn awesome in my book. I had the pleasure of becoming a friend of a member of 315 squadron(Polish), what a great bunch of guys they were and what thay had to put up with. Ive read Hartmanns book and I,ve hung out at the P-38 hangar devoted to Bongs squadron and I’ll have to say that it would probably be a toss up to all three on any given day. Sorry if after all that I did not make a choice. You have to take all the historical facts into consideration. As far as pilot skills go, Hartmann was probably the worse pilot of the three when he FIRST got into the air…less training than Americans., but more war experience afterwards than any American pilot could have ever seen…
i think bong might av shot im down if he saw him 1st but other wise Erich would av won. Goerge Beurling would av shot im down for sure and make no mistake
DaveBinVa.: in reply to your question about pilots who shot down AC in more than one war, one name that comes to mind is Col. Robin Olds (WWII & Vietnam). Also, try Bud Mahurin. Sorry, my memory is fuzzy on the dtails, it’s been a long time. But if you do a little research on these names you might find what you’re looking for. I know there’s got to be at least several others out there
besides these.
I have read this string with great interest. If you study the facts on all of these gentlemen, you will see they were all men of great skill and flying ability. My vote would go to Erich Hartmann. Aside from the 352 confirmed aerial kills, he was involved in over 1100 aerial engeagements, sometimes flying as many as 6-8 sorties a day and he was young. When he came to the states and flew against many of our best pilots, it wasn’t even close. His experience in the air put him in a class by himself. This in no way is meant to diminish the accomplishments of these other men. Compared to Bong, Hartmann shot down more airplanes in one month than Bong shot down his entire Pacific career (Aug 43 = 48 kills). He shot down 10 airplanes in a single day…twice. Saying he spent his entire career on the eastern front is an arguement I would not hang my hat on. Many of the VVS pilots on the eastern front genuinly feared this man.
No one has mentioned the one pilot in the Luftwaffe that even Adolph Galland said was an absolute virtuoso in the air during a lecture I heard him give a number of years ago in Atlanta. If this gentleman had not been killed when bailing out of his aircraft he would probably have surpassed Hartmann. That pilot is Hans-Joachim Marseille. He got 17 kills during three sorties in one day and averaged 15 bullets per kill. Everyone who has written about him say he was a master of aerial gunnery and flying fighter aircraft in combat. We tend to look at the kill column and not at the overall abilities of the pilot pool. Doing some math in public here, he got 41 victories in the month he was killed (Sept 42!). My assumption is based on the fact he would have gotten more experienced over the 31 months the war lasted from the time he was killed. He had 105 kills going into Sept of 1942. If he had lived he could have possibly ended the war with 1340 kills! Many wrote that his mental processes in the air or what we call in the modern world his observation-orientation-decision-action (OODA) loop was extremely tight… ultimate situational awareness. I realize there are a number of variables this simple math adventure cannot take into account when analyzing aerial combat, such as the Clausewitzian fog of war. But…since we were given choices A, B, or C…and having talked to several pilots who knew Hartmann and got the chance to learn in the air from him, place me in the Erich Hartmann school. If you ask me to tell you who was the best fighter pilot of WW II from the standpoint of a pilot peforming the air dominance function over the battlefield… Hans-Joachim Marseille hands down.
Now you can see what to much time on your hands, reading to much, and a masters degree will do to you…and not for you! Being on active duty, sitting behind a desk way to close to the D.C. area and not in a cockpit with a war going on has not helped.
Col Ceasar ‘Rico’ Rodriguez, F-15C pilot extraordiare…two MiG kills in Desert Storm and one MiG-29 kill in Allied Force. I think he is still at Mountain Home.
Pagan: Interesting! Had no idea of this guy’s existence. So, depending on the
on our future conflicts, he has a chance to join an elite club of pilots who have victories in 3 conflicts. Can’t see a possibility on the radar scope at the moment, though. Any one else come up with any other pilots with victories in 2 or more conflicts? How about Israeli pilots? They would seem good possibilities.
I talked to Col Rodriguez during Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was in a leadership position at another “forward deployed location”. I asked him if he had the chance. He said no way…they sent him to an F-16 BASE! Not a single F-15C on the ramp. Since the IZAF went Tut’s Tomb (buried their MiGs), he knew he would not have the chance even if he was with an F-15C unit. Did not matter as we prepared for the Battle of Baghdad, which the Light Grays would not have an active part in.
Capt Robert Miller. Six kills in the ETO in WW II. One kill in Korea. My Uncle.
Col. Paul douglas had his F-105D, 59-1743, “Arkansas Traveler” decorated with eight swastikas. He flew with the 388 TFW in Korat AB in 1968. His P-47 flown in WW II was also named the same and he got his kills with the “Jug”.
Berry 13: YES!!! How stupid of me! I built Revell’s kit of the Arkansas Traveller
last year & now I remember the decal with the swastikas on it. Great call.
