I started to post this in another topic but didn’t want to take that topic in another direction so I thought I would ask it here.
Since Erich Hartmann was considered the “Ace of Aces” I was curious as to how you all feel he would have fared against Richard Bong in his P-38 or Francis Gabreski in his P-47?
That would have made for an interesting dogfight. [:0]
Mike
erich hartmann shot down 352 planes!!! most americans puffed their chests out after 5, and rotated out after 100 missions!!! i’d put my money on big E!! later.
I’d put my money on Erich too, all that in a 109
Yes Chris but most of those were inexperienced Russian pilots and a not all of those kills were fighters.
I think Bong would have beat him as he went up against the more maneuverable Zeros.
Mike
Americans were shooting at fighters. Almost never at bombers. And never at outdated fighters and slow, poorly armed attack planes on the Eastern front. This is an old, old argument and I don’t have the academic background to repeat all evidence for both sides. Early in the war Hartman was flying a state of the art airplane. At the end he was flying the same airplane many claim that, while updated, those updates in the Gustav were negated by all the lumps, bumbs and protrusions that put a huge drag penalty on an already old design. However, every point I have made can be refuted. It goes on and on. I’ll bet the pilots themselves, if asked, and they were, would all reply that luck was their best friend throughout the war. And Gabreski, who lived until it seems like last week, was the luckiest of all. A nice, humble man, too.
Yes, maybe so Mike, but most of those Zero pilots were equally inexperienced. Hartmann fought day after day and some of the pilots he faced were the elite of the VVS. This alone tells me that he had the experience to match his kill record. Hartmann and Priller are two of my favorite pilots.
Why Gabreski? His kills were air to air and air to ground. The leading ace with all air to air in the ETO was Robert S. Johnson. He also flew with the 56th Fighter Group.
If you remember in Eric Hartmanns book when he tangled with the P-51’s, it was his skill that kept him from being shot down. He admits, if the P-51 pilot had been more experienced, he would have been shot down. In a fight with Bob Johnson it could go one way or the other, depending on who saw the other first.
I would put my money on bong. That 38 isnt all that manueverable and to get 40 comfirms in it has to say something. Gabby was in the better plane (this is my own personal opinion) so I think Bong was the better pilot.
That may very well be Kevin and I can see where the debate lies.
How would the 109 do against the P-38?
Would it be able to knock the tough P-47 Jug out of the sky?
The possibilities are endless and we will never know for sure.
It does create an interesting discussion though I must admit.
I think it all boils down to who makes the worst mistake loses. [;)]
Mike
Because I like him and his aircraft. [:D] [;)]
Mike
Well, I like Bob Johnson and his P-47D.[;)][;)][(-D][(-D]
experienced or not, you still got to maneuver your plane in position, line up the pipper and hit the target you are aiming for. he probably was the master of deflection shooting and could hit you when you were least expecting it. later.
I think any of these pilots would tell us they would rather be lucky than good any day. Most pilots shot down didn’t even see the other plane until it was too late or not at all. As far as dogfighting goes most of the aces considered that if you wound up in a dogfight then you had already screwed up. Teamwork was by far the best weapon any of these pilots had, regardless of planes, that and spotting the enemy before he spots you were the best advantages. So I would say whoever saw the other first would probably work himself into an advantageous position and make the kill, and most probably without even being seen, as history teaches us. The encounter would probably be over that quickly. Most of the aces named above were also outstanding naturals at high angle deflection shooting so missing probably wouldn’t be an option.
Cheers…Snowy
Well, I like Priller and his FW-190D-9 and Hartmann and his Me-109G-10![:p][}:)]
What it boils down to is the skill of the pilot and how well maintained the plane was. Being a top ace had its benefits, your plane got better attention and the best fuel, parts etc. The P-38 was designed as an interceptor, the P-47 was intended for escort duty (as was the Mustang). The entire Me-109 family was designed as a mix it up dogfighter as was the FW-190. The P-38 excelled as a long range escort fighter, the P-47 as a ground attack machine. If I had to put my money on any one aircraft it would be a tie between the P-47 and the FW-190. They were both robust enough to get you home when damaged, could inflict an awful lot of damage and both looked good. The FW was marginally better as a fighter because it could out manuever the jug IF the pilot had the skill to do so. Towards the end of the war, attrition had taken a lot of the Germans Ace pilots (the same with the Japanese). There weren’t very many skilled pilots left by mid to late 1944.
Personally, I’d take Robin Olds…
Fade to Black…
Don’t forget Heinz Bar or Hans Joachim Marseilles, both of whom racked up huge kill totals against the British and the Americans in the west, and not just against the Soviets.
Both of these were exceptional pilots with 3 figure kill totals.
As regards Hartman, he did amass a total of 352 kills, and survive the war without a combination of extreme skill, and a little luck.
Karl
Absolutlely correct. Anyway, regarding deflection, I can quote Hartmann himself about deflection shooting: “I like to fire when the target fills my windscreen” and “Get close. And when you think you are too close, get closer”.
Anyway, the greatest German WWII ace was Hans Joachim Marseilles: in North Africa, outnumbered by RAF planes. He was a outstanding shooter.
Bye,
Max
Well, how about Saburo Sakai? He was no slouch either.
In my humble opinion, Hartmann, regardless as to plane his method was well refined and his See- Decide - Attack philosophy would probably allow him to engage/disengage when it suited him. Gabby seemed very aggresive and may have pushed the fight regardless as to position, dont know a lot about bong but the 38 was a better boom and zoom than turning fighter so i cant see him catching hartmann unaware.
Thats my opinion anyway :O)
Cadd