Well in my opinion I would have to go with Hartmann with his experience. Dont get me wrong they are all favorites of mine, but Hartmann and all the other german pilots of WW2 didnt really get a chance to rest after every mission unlike the allied pilots. They fought day after day. Again this is just my opinion.
I swore I would avoid commenting on these debates with a group just as I do religion and politics. So far as I know not one of us who has checked in has engaged in air combat, at least not with people trying to kill us. However, if it’s going to be Favorite Aviator contest, I’ll go with Gabreski. After so many of the greatest WW II hotshots took so much criticism for having a tough time making the transition to jets, (and a few of the best, like Don Gentile, dying in the process) Francis Gabreski went into Korea with his F-86 and made himself an ace again. He literally helped write the book on modern air combat. And, in closing, I’d just like to add that moldy old platitude, which applies just as well when talking about who was the greatest fighter ace – history is written by the winners.
For the record, this was not meant to be a debate but was just asked out of curiosity.
I am not very up on my history of these pilots and their tactics so that is one reason I asked. I was just curious to the “what if…” question. [;)]
Mike
I could be wrong about this but I thought I read somewhere that Hartmann had to bail out something like 17 times in his career as a fighter pilot. Can someone confirm this? I have a book at home about this but unfortunately I am at work right now. LOL! Doesn’t that roughly work out to going down once every 20 victories? I’m not sure if he had to bail out due to being shot down by fighters, bombers, AAA, or mechanical failure though. It would be interesting to find out.
Eric
I haven’t read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has been pointed out elsewhere.
The Germans were notoriously generous in their kill numbers. In an attempt to convince Hitler that they were doing such a great job of shooting down the enemy, the same plane could have been shot down by several different pilots. I once read somewhere that the total number of kills claimed by the Germans at the end of the war exceeded the total number of Allied aircraft in the ETO by several times over.
I’m sure this is the case with all claims, but I think that the Allies tended to be a little more cautious in their counts. Whereas their primary concern was trying to get an idea of Axis capabilities based on aircraft production vs. the number destroyed, the primary concern of the German commanders was to keep Hitler from going into one of his tantrums. True or not, I have no idea. Just what I read somewhere along the line.
Ditka!
Mike, sorry, I didn’t mean for it to sound contentious. I’ve spent too many years around politicians and reporters and tend to call any friendly discussion a “debate.” Just a poor choice of words on my part. It’s just that I’ve read enough aviation history, been very fortunate to interview a number of aces, including a few of the names that have been brought up in this string. Obviously, like the blind men and elephant, history, especially that involving warfare, is a very elusive topic. Even the aces who fought against each other saw it from different perspectives and have different conclusions.
As for Hartmann bailing out, I seem to have read a similar number to what you quote in more than one source, but can’t confirm it. And does anyone know when Hartmann died? Was it old and in bed? If I’m not terribly mistaken, he was, like a lot of Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine officers, such as Rader (sp?) and Galland, not such a rabid Nazi. But then, a moderately or even mildly committed Nazi is still…
And I’m still surprised that we got to page two before Don Gentile was mentioned. Hub Zemke sent him home in disgrace for flat hatting, resulting in the pranging of his Shangri-la P-51B, but that’s no reason to leave him out of this Hall of Fame.
I’m a Johnson may myself, not only was he a truly great pilot, he also had a great great deal of input into the tactics that the other 56th pilots used. Just about all of them took pages out of his book. He got more kills quicker than Hartmann, he just got rotated out where Bubi didn’t. They still use Johnson tactics to train pilots in military textbooks. He flew right along with Gabby, but even Gabby thought Johnson was a better fighter pilot.
Whether or not you meant it as such, this kinda question invariably brings the ‘experts’ outta the woodwork, and the debate begins. You did good, Mike. Very entertaining thread… [;)]
Fade to Black…
I think that if given the chance, those two dudes in the F-14’s from the Final Countdown would have torn up some aircraft.
Sharkskin, Gentile was fired by Don Blakesley, not Hub Zemke. Zemke had his own FG.
Anyone thought about Gunther Rall?
Do a quick search on his career and prepare to get amazed, not the Luftwafe years but also the US trajectory.
IMHO there may never be no one with his records again. Pretty impressive. I wonder how he would handle a dogfight in Korea with a Sabre against a forest of Mig’s
I believe from reading a book on WWII Acres, that Robert Johnson did go up against Hartmann and came very close to defeating him. I am not sure, but I remember the reminiscence of the American pilot who met Hartman seven or eight years later during a reception. After Hartmann had confirmed the plane, he told the American pilot, “You damn near killed me!” I’m not sure, but I believe that American pilot was Robert Johnson. It had been a long time since I read that book.
I should think not! During the ‘Marrianas Turkey Shoot’ he single-handedly held off 20 experienced American Hellcat fighter pilots and lived to return home. Now that’s flying! [^]
Sharkskin, I believe Hartmann died in the 1990’s and quietly in bed. I do remember reading that he served for at least ten years, possibly more as the commander in chief of the West German Air Force during the Fifties and Sixties, after West Germany joined NATO. According to the article he was instrumental in building it up to the force it is today.
I don’t know how accurate I am with this as everything I read was read many years ago, so if someone else has more details, I’d love to know more.
Hartmann…he shot down almost 9 times as many aircraft as Bong and 12.5 times as many as Gabreski. Even though he was flying against a less skilled enemy force, to shoot down that number of aircraft is truly impressive.
Further, look at the Luftwaffe’s top 3 aces, Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn and Rall…over 1,050 Allied aircraft shot down by these three pilots. True, over Europe, they were shooting down bombers but they also had to get through the fighter escort and defensive fire to get to the bombers. That in itself would be a pretty spectacular feat!
What about James Edgar “Johnnie” Johnson of the RAF? Haven’t heard his name bandied about yet. Credited with 38 confirmed victories (and probably a whole bunch more that weren’t counted because they couldn’t be confirmed or were awarded to other pilots who claimed the victories as their own) and his Spitfire was never once holed by an enemy bullet. That’s impressive!
No problem my friend as I did not see your post as contentious at all. I was just trying to put that in before someone construed it as such. [:D]
Politicians and reporters? I feel sorry for you my friend. [;)]
Mike
That is true, unfortunately. [;)]
I would just like to learn a little if I may.
Thanks Steve-O. I thought this would be an interesting topic and have yet to see it discussed. I do have an older, small, hardback book that I bought when I belonged to the Military Book Club years ago when I was a teenager. It is called, “Fighter Pilots of World War II” by Robert Jackson and it was written in 1976.
It has short stories on Paddy Finucane, Frank Carey, 'Johnnie Johnson, Pattle, Richard Stevens, George Beurling, Robert S. Johnson, Charles H. MacDonald, Adolf Galland, Erich Hartmann, Werner Molders, Jochen Marseille, Saburo Sakai, and Ivan Kozhedub.
I guess I need to read it again as it is a good, although short book of 156 pages.
Mike
Statistically, I think Bob Johnson had a higher kill ratio than Hartmann, given the same number of missions in the same time frame. You have to compare apples to apples, though. How many missions did it take for a given pilot to achieve X number of kills, and in what kind of time frame. Hartmann flew more sorties over a longer period of time than Johnson, but it took Johnson less time to reach his total victory count of 28 than it took Hartmann to reach that same number.
Had Johnson flown in the same circumstance as Hartmann and survived to war’s end, then it is very likely that, based on the statistics known to exist, Johnson would be the world’s “ace of aces.”
The Toliver/Constable book “Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe” compares Johnson to Molders in this way, and in quite a bit of detail. It is an excellent resource for this kind of discussion.
Mike, I was actually being a bit facetious with some of my comments!!! [:p]
Anyhoo, there was a thread WAAAAAAAY back, almost in the beginning days of the FSM forums titled ‘Who’s Your Favorite Ace’ or something similar. That thread became rather HUGE and was also quite entertaining. Fersher worth searching for if you get the urge…
Fade to Black…
Wayne, those guys weren’t nuthin’ compared to Doug Masters and ‘Chappy’ Sinclair, especially when they brought some cheapo classic rock tapes, a walkman and a good supply of AA’s along to make the jets fly faster…
Fade to Black…
According to “Boyd”, (the biography of the fighter pilot/engineer Col. John Boyd, which gives an interesting look into the political world of the military to an outsider…) most of Bong’s kills were the result of his exploitation of the P-38s strengths- Lacking maneuverability, he would make diving attacks on formations of enemy airplanes, then use his newfound speed to escape a countermove.
Boyd himself was reputed to be one of the best in the world, but only ever had (I believe) one probable to his credit-he simply never got the chance while in Korea, and was an instructor or engineer throughout the rest of the 50s and 60s…
This is a good topic for this question. I remember reading a long time ago about some WWII pilots who fought later in Korea and perhaps Vietnam. I read that they rightly had their old German or Japanese kill markings applied to their new jets along with their new kills. I dont remember any examples though. So Im wondering if yall could give a few examples! I would love to find some pics of some and perhaps do a before and after build with their WWII fighter and their Korea/Vietnam fighter.
Thanks for any help you can provide!