Hello all!
I bought the wonderful Dragon 3in1 kit, and in the kit it’s possible to build many (many) different tigers.
One of them is Wittman’s Tiger at Villers-Bocage. The suggested turret number is 212, however I’ve seen different suggestions for the number at several web-sites. Does anyone have a good picture or can link me to a photo showing this VITAL(!) detail?
ThanX!
HERE ARE THE “disputed” photos @ Villers Bocage-no help with a clear turret number though…[:(]
Many historians feel that this si NOT Wittmans Tiger??? I gave up a long time ago.
You will get the fire going again if you pursue this. The best information is found on the axis forum at Missing Lynx (still not settled). Perhaps Roy Chow can chime in if he reads this…
Steve
205, 212, 222…take your pick. I think 232 was also on the list of candidates. The information surrounding this situation is all so convoluted and confusing, who really knows?
Follow Crockett’s suggestion and dial up Missing-Lynx. They have beaten this dead horse with a stick repeatedly.
I like 222, if for nothing more than the fact that my David Pentland print of "Counterattack at Viller’s Bocage" which hangs over my desk, sports this number. [:P]
Looks like 205 is you answer ,… this painting is called Wittmann at Villers Bocage
It was nice of them to bother to open and close the gate instead of plowing over it too !
This painting is called “Conterattack at Viller’s Bocage” Painted by the highly esteemed artist David Pentland.
It shows Wittmann’s tank as number 222.
Please read previous posts. A painting does not constitute an historical fact. I can probably find one with 212 if I looked hard enough. [sigh]
Tell me about it , …you would think an artist doing a beautiful painting such as these 2 examples would find the correct turret number for gods sakes , I know the one he died in was #007 , he had a mid( or perhaps it was an early) that had SO4 on the turret.
Thats why I hardly even try to model a particular vehicle anymore , the second you finish the paint, decals , and post it somewhere , it gets ripped apart because something is slightly incorrect .
Perhaps the decals are not the correct loctaion on the turret ,"Oh wait there was a zimm chip over there that you don’t have " that kind of stuff .
I’ll do a random tank from a unit , or even a unit that didn’t exist ,it really does not matter to me that much anymore .
It gets kind of ridiculous at times .
lol, thats great![(-D]
To make matters worse, even S04’s history is in doubt. The last thread I saw on this topic stated that Wittmann never served in S04 at all! Purportedly, S04 was painted up with the kill rings for the propaganda photos and never actually used by Wittmann. This would go a long ways towards explaining why there aren’t any other photos of Wittmann and S04 taken at a later date, a bit odd considering all the rest of the hype raised around him at the time.
It does get ridiculous at times, trying to be definitive in a indefinite realm. If you try and enter a model like this in a contest, you will automatically lose because the judges will stand around and argue about “historical accuracy” of your markings. Meanwhile, your model will be out of the running because of the judges split decision, when in fact nobody really knows. I’ve been on the receiving end of just such a scenario. [B)]
“When in doubt, leave it out”. Put some tree branches over the numbers and forgetaboutit…
remember reading that 007 was one of the numbers as well?
That would be your best bet. It would take a dozen history professors researching thousands of documents all over Europe to settle this one. Even then…
It’s also worth considering the possibility that he’d switch vehicles due to mechanical problems or operational requirements.
Here is the last (?) thread I’ve seen on this topic;
There is a lot to chew on here, so wade your way through.
Here they come to the conclusion that it is 212…I think. [%-)]
At least that’s what I got out of all this…I’m sure this will probably all change tomorrow.
An arguement that could go on for an eternity for sure .
Thats why I hate doing certain vehicles now as I said before .
I remember doing research for a jagdtiger project a few years back , I was looking for the numbers for Otto Carrius’ command Jtiger .
Noone seemed to know what it was or if it even had markings for that matter that late in the war , then some said he did not even serve in a jagdtiger , he just commanded the platoon remotely ,I just gave up and put whatever on it .
It ended up being a casualty in my last move because my girlfriends sister couldn’t keep her hands off my models like I asked to her make sure of .
Its also hard to find figures that actually look like certain war heros of the time , the faces are so generic at times .
They are getting way better now than they were even a couple years ago.
007 was the tank that he died in, but for sure not the one at villers bocage.
Kykeon,
You should pick up Carius’ book, “Tigers In The Mud”, your question will be answered. Be warned, he is very critical of the quality of American forces and actually comes off contemptuous.
Steve
Steve,
I have a copy of Tigers in the Mud, but it is Spector with the Carius question, either that or I have forgotten what the question is?
WOW!!!
Looks like I’ve accidently opend a can of worms!
I thought this was much more clearer since he was a “Tank ace”.
The boxart was made by Ronald Volstad, and he calls for 212.
I think I can rely on this since he, Volstad, has a lot of experience, however if Wittman was the company commander would’nt he have a anomber like 201 (first of the second company) or so?
I’m not too familier with the turret nomber rules.
I knew that i read somewhere about 007 as being on of the tank numbers!!!
still may be one day they may sort is one out[banghead]
The sSSPzAbt 101 used the digits 05 and 04 to denote the company command vehicles. Thus Wittmann’s normal mount was 205, as he was the commander of the second company. 205 broke down during the long march to the front, so it was unavailable on the morning of June 13th. Wittmann commandeered Tiger 234 (Steif’s), but after driving only a few yards, he decided it too needed major repair and left it. Wittmann then commandeered Sowa’s tiger, (and here is where the confusion really begins) which should have been Tiger 222. But since tiger 222 was photographed after the battle towing Tiger 231, it could not have been the Tiger Wittmann lost in Viller’s Bocage. (Unless you follow Jean Restayn’s account that 222 was recovered, repaired, and put back into service.)
The identity of Tiger 222 as being the Tiger in this after-battle photo shown towing 231 has been in question because you can only see the first and last 2 in the photo, the middle number is obscured by an officer’s coat. Careful examination of muzzle brakes and mantle types, along with other small details, combined with the process of elimination, arrives at the conclusion that the tank in the after-battle photo, shown towing 231, is in fact 222. This means that the Tiger Wittmann “hot-seated” from Sowa was not Sowa’s normal 222, but was in fact 212, which Sowa himself must have borrowed from someone else.
At least that is what I got out of this whole mess. I’m sure this isn’t going to be the last we hear on this, because someone else will surely come to a different decision.
Please don’t hold me to this conclusion, I am only the messenger repeating what others have said. [;)]
I am also aware that all of this does not agree with the accounts described in Tigers in Combat II, Panzers in Normandy, Then and Now, and Jean Restayn’s Tiger I on the Western Front, none of which agree with each other. I don’t have a copy of Taylor’s; Viller’s Bocage Through the Lens, so I don’t know how this conclusion stands with Taylor’s account.
So you see, this is indeed a large can of worms. One that probably won’t be settled in the near, foreseeable future.
so the info is what[?]
1 propaganda about their tank hero
2 true info lost because many records blown to kingdom come
3 none of the above
4 all of the above
There’s some speculation that additional photos exist of Villers Bocage after the battle taken by the Royal Corps of Engineers. These may shed some light on the issue.
As for the Tiger that Wittmann was killed in, here it is:
This much is definitive. There are questions as to who actually killed Wittmann, some believe it was a Firefly, others think it was RAF Typhoons. Either one is plausible when you look at the terrain the tank hulk is sitting in…wide open space, perfect for air attack. I have no opinion either way.
I have some other Wittmann and general Tiger photos you may, or may not, have seen, posted here:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y43/jherne/tigers/
Jeff