Hi Guys!
So, I’ve got the standing rigging done on the Revell 1:150 Vasa, and now I’m looking at sail options. I don’t want to use the Vac Formed ones, but I don’t have any experience with making my own stuff.
It was suggested to me by Warshipguy to make furled sails out of tissue paper, painted, glue-sealed, and rolled up to look like furled sails. I like the sound of it…
Anyone have something to add to this suggestion? Any more specific advice would be great!!! Maybe I just need to find some pics online…
Also, I’m already looking ahead to consider my next kit…but I can’t think of what to do!! I want to build something a little bigger (around 30" when complete)…with good detail, decent instructions (since I’m still new to ships!), and some character! I like using the Vasa as a subject because there’s an interesting story of it’s first voyage…For any who are interested, here is a link to my (public view) Facebook Album of the Vasa Build…got some new pics of the standing rig posted last night…
I wouldn’t roll them. Furled sails on old ships were gathered- sort of folded, Rolling is only done on modern sailing vessels. However, that doesn’t negate the idea of tissue sails. I used a fine cloth on my Heller Reale de France galley, but that was 1:60 scale. Only two sails and it was a lot of work. I would not recommend cloth on something as small as 150. It is amazing what you can do with tissue, especially facial tissue such as Kleenex. I have seen that stuff used for many modeling parts such as tarps, awnings, etc. One technique is to wet it with dilute white glue, then folding and forming (very gently, of course). Should work for furled sails, but I have never done it.
Thanks, Don!
I was thinking I could maybe cut some sheets of tissue to the appropriate width for each yard, then maybe airbrush them a darker light tan, then dilute some Elmer’s into a spray bottle, give them a good spritz, gather them into shape, let dry, then airbrush again with a lighter light tan for some texture…
Then I guess they are lashed (??) to the yards at intervals across the length??
Just a brainstorm…I tend to be apprehensive about just trying things out on a kit, without being sure I can undo it if it becomes a disaster, you know?
One nice thing about using tissue is that you can get it in various colors such as light tan, off-white, etc. Many people assume that sails were/are white but they seldom were. I also use the term “rolled” advisedly. Don is absolutely correct; sails were furled.
I also LIGHTLY airbrush mine with watercolors to provide shading, wear, etc. Then, I paint them in diluted white glue as well to stiffen them into shape. Don’t be apprehensive about trying this technique; tissue is cheap.
I’m excited to try it out! The masts are looking kinda bare with nothing on them , so I think Furled sails are the way to go. BTW, Bill, for all I know, you didn’t even use the word rolled…I may have just come up with it on my own, but I deifnitely imagined gathering them up instead of actually rolling them into a tube…
Say, do you use a brush to apply the dilute glue? Here’s a crazy idea: Tinting the dilute glue with water and some acrylic paint? Or is that obvious?
I’ll prbably stop by the craft store on my way home from work today, see what I can find for tissue, and get to experimenting!! Fun Stuff!
So I tried my hand at making a furled sail from tissue paper…I think my technique leaves something to be desired! I guess I’ll keep practicing and see if I can get some different results…
Truth is, I’m not sure how it’s supposed to look…
Also, for anyone reading this, am I wrong in thinking that the knots tied in the riggin thread are way too big? 1:150 scale, and when I tie a couple of lines to a rigging block, the knots look big and distracting…is this to be expected for such a small scale?? Or should I try some secret way of hiding/eliminating knots? I’m looking to find a larger scale kit to build next (around 1:100), but it seems like there’s little in the way of selection, unless I spend 300 dollars on a Big Heller Soleil Royale or Victory…I guess there’s always the Revell Connie…although, that kit seems like it’s almost cliche to build! haha
Yes, in 150 scale knots can appear too large, but I have done a number of 1:196 scale models and the secret to small knots is small thread. The smaller the scale, the harder it is to find fine enough thread. One problem these days is the drop of of interest in sewing as a hobby. Thus the craft stores like Michaels and JoAnns to not carry a very good selection of threads any more (maybe less being manufactured too, but someone who works in the store mentioned this to me about the poor availability of sizes).
I now find I can get better and finer thread from model ship suppliers like ME and Bluejacket. It is a pain to have to order thread mailorder when I need some in a hurry, but that is the way the world is today. Also, ME gives the diameter of threads in its catalog. I have never been able to understand thread sizes looking at the spools in a sewing/craft store
I like using silkspan for furled sails for smaller scales and use sailcloth material from Model Expo for larger scale ships.
If you’re going to furl a sail, don’t start with a full size sail. Make it 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the sail. That way the furled sail won’t end up being too bulky.
On a square-rigged ship the yards should be lowered if the sails are furled.
If you plan to use paper, then use a fine parchment or resume paper. And like was said, do not try to furl the entire size of the sail, but cut the area in half and then into a triangle. In an accordion fashion, fold the sail up to the yard.
Here’s another thread that may be of interest: /forums/t/33775.aspx?PageIndex=1 . It covers much of the same ground as the one to which Mr. Gonzales kindly linked us, but in more detail. Unfortunatly the links to Drydock Models and the website established by our former fellow Forum member MichelVRTG don’t work any more.
I think the Wasa would be a fine candidate for the furled sail treatment. After all, she only had her sails set for something less than an hour before…
Thanks! Being new to ship modeling, I find myself scouring the internet for all available info from forums/kit build sites, etc., and soaking it up like sponge!
I agree about the Wasa being an appropriate subject…I will mention that I have the yards set at the normal location on the masts, I know they’re supposed to be lowered, but details like that don’t really concern me at this point… And I like that the yards have a nice little Tab to lock into, I’m confident they wil stay put!
My real attraction to building the Wasa was the interesting (and tragic) story of her life…plus, the ship itself is very cool and of a dramatic design that I find beautiful. I guess I like the look of the really old ships the best. I just purchased a 1965 (?) original release of the Revell Golden Hind kit today…can’t wait for it to arrive! And I like the design of that vessel as well…I understand that kit is regarded as one of Revell’s best offerings! Shame that the availability of quality subjects/kits is limited, but I guess waning popularity has resulted in a drought of the market…such is the way of commercialism, I suppose. How fortunate that Revell just released their Wasa so recently!! Maybe there’s a new trend coming?
Anyway, I’d like to express my gratitude again for all the advice, in this and the various other threads I’ve posted/read. If not for the guidance of experienced modelers, I’m quite sure I’d have made a few mistakes already, whether they be construction techniques, or most obviously, the purchase of kits that I would regret…Now I have a wish list of a several kits that I hope to build, thanks to the suggestion and review of my esteemed “peers”…
Well, I’ve reached the point in the rigging installation where I feel it’s time to begin constructing and attaching the furled sails on my Wasa. The next step (according to the instructions) includes a lot of running rigging on and around the yards, and I believe it will become too crowded in the area, so I guess it’s sail-making time!
I’m going to paint some of the tissue with a dark tan, and stain some tissue with coffee. The best effect of these two methods will progress to the second round: Cutting them out (smaller than the actual sails) and brushing them with diluted Elmer’s. If that goes well, then furling will follow. But that’s where I lose my confidence. I tried a few times with some experimental sections of tissue, but it always ends up looking…funny, I guess. I need to better understand the necessary shape of the bundles…
Tonight I’m going to give it a try again, and see what I can come up with!
I try hard to avoid offering “advice” on this forum - much less on pronouncing techniques “right” or “wrong.” But in this case I feel obliged to make an exception. Never, never dye fabric, paper or anything else with tea or coffee! Two reasons: (1) it darkens with age - and I mean really darkens, within a few months or a year. (2) Tea and coffee both contain tannic acid, which literally eats fabric. (I’m not sure about paper, but I find it hard to believe tea or coffee would do it any good.) Believe me, I speak from hard-earned experience. I once restored an old model whose linen sails had been dyed with tea. They were an extremely dark brown, and literally fell apart in my hands.
I can also assert on the basis of experience that the technique I described in one of those older posts (i.e., painting silkspan with a mixture of acrylic paint and white glue) works - and is extremely easy to do. My model of the frigate Hancock, which is shown in my avatar, has furled sails made in that manner; the model is almost thirty years old now, and looks as good as new.
Another point to think about: the Wasa, by definition, never had any sails other than brand new ones. The natural color of sailcloth was a slightly beige-ish off white. My color of preference for furled sails is something like Polly-scale’s “New Concrete.” You can also choose from about a dozen appropriate shades - and spend a lot less money - if you go to a craft store and peruse its assortment of acrylic “craft paints.” I’ve never tried the “paint and Elmer’s” trick with them, but I strongly suspect it would work fine.
I appreciate your input, whether you consider it to be advice, or guidelines, or just subjective observation…Understanding my limited knowledge and experience within the realm of model shipbuilding, I tend to absorb every bit of info I can, try to ruminate upon it all, and make my attempts based on what I think will work, what I think I can do, and what will offer the most pleasing end result…hopefully in some kind of balanced compromise.
I read in a couple of places about the tea-or-coffee dipping technique, and the pics I saw made it seem vastly superior to "plain’ ol’ vacuum-formed sails. So I considered it. But now I’ve learned of the potential damage the Tannic acids can have on the material, as well as the inherent darkening over time, which I care to avoid! I am now persuaded against the Coffee Dip.
Regarding your previous response and direction toward a past post on the subject, I did read it, and I will follow the described technique of Framing the paper, Brushing it with tinted and thinned glue, and then Furling it to my best interpretation of a sail. One aspect of your process is beyond me…it sounded as if you hung the wet sail on the yard with all accompanying rigging line attached, and literally Furled it by manipulating the appropriate cordage. My ship isn’t fully rigged, and I think I’m still below the level of functioning running rigging Is it enough to simply bunch up the sails, or roll them in a loose accordion fashion, and then attach them to the yard? Then I thought I would lash them to the yard with a spiraled length of tan thread…
Als, it did occur to me this morning about the Wasa having been outfitted with new sails, never having the chance to become dingy…so I certainly won’t have to concern myself with reproducing an aged look to them…but I still wonder if some aspect of coloring will help to create the proper shading effect in terms of scale? My first couple of tries with the furled sails (with no paint, just tan tissue paper and dilute glue) lacked a certain depth of color in the crevices and so forth…maybe a light drybrush for highlights? Or a quick airbrush overspray? I think a wash would spell disaster due to the absorbency of the paper…
I’ve also been reading with interest as I’ve hung furled sails on a large model of Danmark (billings)
Anyway. The elmers glue will work just have a small paint brush and some water handy, so that you’ll be able to smooth out things once the sails are in place.
Any painting would want to be very lightly done so the color(s) doesn’t get to dark.
I can also say that the vacu sails will work fine, as long as your very good with a paint brush and paint washes.
I’d seen a model with very well done vacu sails. It looked perfect. The guy had a touch for aging.
My personal experience suggests that, though the paint/glue ratio isn’t critical, 50/50 is about right. Remember that the white color of the glue is irrelevant; the glue dries transparent. The procedure I generally use is: 1. Stretch the tissue over the frame. (That is crucial. So is the use of tough tissue - preferably silkspan.) 2. Apply the paint/glue mixture. (I usually use a cheap styrofoam brush.) 3. let the sheet of paper dry. 4. Lay out the shape of the sail with a pencil. 5. Add the boltrope. 6. Fasten the sail to the yard, using fine thread and the smallest needle you can find. 7. Add whatever lines you intend to rig to the sail (sheets, clewlines, leechlines, buntlines, etc.). 8. Touch the sail with a small brush dipped in water. That will make the sail flexible, but won’t affect the color. 9. Furl the sail to the yard with the gaskets - two to four long, light lines that go around the sail and yard in a spiral.
Another good trick: rig as much of the gear, including the sail, to the yard before mounting the yard to the model. Attach the yard temorarily to a dowel and clamp the dowel in a vise. Attach the sail and as much rigging as possible, then secure the yard to the mast. (People sometimes wonder how experienced ship modelers manage to fuss over all those strings without breaking them or snarling them up. Answer: the modeler does as much of the rigging as possible off the model.)
I certainly won’t argue with any modeler who, whether due to lack of experience, poor eyesight, or whatever, decides to leave some (or all) of the running rigging off a 1/150-scale model. It does take some practice, and if you don’t have excellent close-up vision (like I used to have, but don’t any more), it’s likely to be an exercise in frustration.
I would venture to suggest that it might be a good idea to mount the yards in their lowered positions if you intend to put furled sails on them. Two reasons. One - the yards would rarely if ever be raised with the sails furled on them. Two - in the sixteenth century it was customary to furl the topsails (the second ones from the bottom) in a rather distinctive way. The lower corners of the topsail would be gathered in toward the middle of the yard and lashed up into a big vertical bundle, which was then lashed to the heel of the topmast. If all this jargon is a problem I strongly recommend R.C. Anderson’s The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, a highly informative little book that, in the Norton paperback edition, is quite affordable.
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