I’ve recently returned to the hobby, and am going about “ruining” some cheaper 1:72 kits before tackling something more detailed.
I hobby in a common area of the house, so am trying to keep the smells of solvents of my hobby to a minimum. To this end, I’ve used Tamiya acrylics for my basecoats, and attempted to protect them with a TS-13 spray lacquer so that I can then wash/weather with acrylics (the plan was to move onto airbrushed lacquer or enamel clear coat after the rattle-can was done).
I’ve attempted an acrylic pinwash / sludgewash over the TS-13 using Tamiya acrylic paints thinned with X-20A - Unfortunately in the cleanup phase using pure X-20A thinner, I am finding that I’m actually not cleaning up the over-eash but in fact lifting everything back to the basecoat
As you can imagine I’m trying to work out what I did wrong - I’m guessing it’s because I didn’t give the lacquer a good 24hrs to cure before applying the pinlining/wash - I’ll try again tomorrow after the lacquer cures, and hoping like hell that I’ve not ruined it already but any reassurances or tips in the meantime would be appreciated
This could be a paint compatibility issue. You will find that many of us have used lacquers over acrylics, but it can be risky depending on how “hot” the lacquer is, and TS-13 has a reputation for being hot. It may be reacting to the acrylic paint underneath.
But I suspect it’s the sludge wash and thinner. We recommend making sludge washes only with water-based acrylics. Tamiya paints are alcohol-based acrylics, so you end up using a paint thinner as a diluting and cleaning agent rather than water, which is neutral. The Tamiya thinner, even though meant for Tamiya acrylics, is going to eat at the top coat because it too, like the paints, is alcohol based, and we can use alcohol to strip paint from models.
Set aside the model and let everything gas out for a week. Come back to it, and in an unobvious spot, try to swab away the sludge wash with the thinner. If it has the same reaction, then you know where you’re at. If not, proceed, but do so carefully.
I know I haven’t given a lot of hope here, but as you pointed out in your post, you’re coming back and trying your hand at a couple of smaller kits before going to town on a big one. But keep us posted on what happens, and I’m sure others will have suggestions, too.
Tim’s got it, I’m sure – that X20A is pretty hot stuff and I’ve had the same thing happen to me.
Only thing I might add is that it looks like maybe you don’t have a primer coat under your Tamiya base color coat, is that right? I’m not sure if it would help in this case (since it seems like X20A has no problem eating through the TS-13) but in general, a coat of primer will help the paint “grip” the plastic better, and should help prevent mechanical removal in some cases.
I’ve attempted an acrylic pinwash / sludgewash over the TS-13 using Tamiya acrylic paints thinned with X-20A - Unfortunately in the cleanup phase using pure X-20A thinner, I am finding that I’m actually not cleaning up the over-eash but in fact lifting everything back to the basecoat
Yeah, as Tim noted, this is the root cause.
I recommend buying some water-based craft store acrylic brands for making washes. Those include Folk Art, Americana, and Apple Barrel. They’re sold at places like Michael’s and HobbyLobby, and also WalMart. They are reasonably priced, compared to products made specifically for scale modeling. And they thin well with water or with isopropryl. Very easy to use, and in the end, they’re more economical than buying prepared washes from the model paint companies.
I use them, along with modeling brands like Andrea, Vallejo Model Color, Lifecolor, for painting figures, too.
Sounds like these guys have it all summed up for you as far as the problem solving part of this all goes Darren. I’m looking forward to seeing the recovery efforts on what looks like a grande build going on so far bud.
I don’t know,I have sprayed Alclad Matte which is a lacquer over acrylics many times without any problems,enamel washes over acrylic work too,I know a lot of guys use Future as a clear coat with enamel washes
Unless i’m reading wrong,is that chart saying,lacquer base-lacquer wash and acrylic base-acrylic wash,which isnt right?
Thanks mate - The main objective of this kit was to “trial run” German 3-tone camo out of an airbrush for the first time, so even if the kit is beyond redemption I’m glad I was able to get that part right at least… Admittedly a 0.15mm needle rather than the 0.30mm I had to hand would’ve been better at 1:72, but given the trial was for a 1:48 scale kit that had been gifted to me I felt the swathes put out by the 0.3mm needle would’ve been fine. I’ve still put a 0.15mm Airbrush on the shopping list though!
Re: A primer, I used a TS-3 rattle can over the plastic before applying the base coats - That’s the colour visible in the “chipped” area of the hull.
I’ve seen such a chart before. Believe this is what it’s saying, taking this model tank as an example:
Bottom coat - dark yellow
Top coat - red brown or green
So, you can apply acrylic (red brown or green) over enamel or lacquer (dark yellow). Don’t apply lacquer (red brown or green) over acrylic or enamel (dark yellow).
The chart is a safe bet. However, like you, I have applied lacquer over acrylic or enamel without issues. Believe it comes down to the handling. I have little doubt that if the lacquer was brush painted in heavy enough coats, the acrylic or enamel underneath might get compromised.
@Tojo72: the chart isn’t saying you can’t, what it is saying is that you won’t have miscibility problems if you use like with like, or less hot over hot paints.
The problem with these discussions is that we all have personal experiences where we’ve done it differently. Here’s another way to look at it from Tamiya:
PAINT COMBINATION INFORMATION
• Base Coat Acrylic/Top Coat Acrylic-Compatible
• Base Coat Enamel/Top Coat Acrylic-Compatible
• Base Coast Lacquer/Top Coat Acrylic-Compatible
• Base Coat Acrylic/Top Coat Enamel-Compatible
• Base Coat Enamel/Top Coat Enamel-Compatible
• Base Coast Lacquer/Top Coat Enamel-Compatible
• Base Coat Acrylic/Top Coat Lacquer-NOT Compatible
• Base Coat Enamel/Top Coat Lacquer-NOT Compatible
• Base Coast Lacquer/Top Coat Lacquer-Compatible
These are general guidelines. As I said in the earlier post, follow them and you mostly won’t have trouble. Can you disregard? Sure. But then you start getting into territory where experience plays a huge factor.
My main reason for using the TS-13 on this model was to finish off the can, and switch over to running Tamiya LP-9 or LP-23 out of an airbrush going forward. Knowing what I know now, I might as well be saying “Oh well, I had a few bullets left so I fired them at a car I was restoring…”, but I didn’t think I had issues with TS-13 over Tamiya Acrylics in the past. That said I also hadn’t attempted post-gloss weathering or environmental effects, so maybe didn’t subject the model to the sort of follow-up abuse where it might be noticed…
I digress… The thinking was that LP’s out of an airbrush could be applied with more finesse than a rattle can, but I’m seeing plenty of sources suggesting this would not be a good idea. Sounds like I’m better to clear-coat with enamels and putting up with the cure time if I’m intending to continue weathering with (water-based) acrylics.
Or I could just take a punt at thinning oils with lighter fluid over acrylic clear coats, and hope the wife can’t smell what I’m doing. Seems to be the way the cool kids do it…
Odorless mineral spirits really isn’t that smelly, and works great for me with the Abteilung502 oils and artist’s oils. I will add that once you try oils for pin/sludge washes, if you have the patience to let them dry, you may never want to go back to using acrylics.
Unfortunately the Tamiya Acrylic sludge wash didn’t want to budge without mobilising what was underneath, so I’ve had to paint over. Having already applied the decals, I was forced to rely on manual brushwork otherwise I’d have started over with the airbrush and tried to seek the originally-intended finish
So yeah, a long way from the finish I was after but it’s saved from the bin at least…
