white 9 supersonic 262 finished pics added

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
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One of my fathers friends was a waist gunner in a bomber one of things he has told me for years is the me262 was a supersonic aircraft. he said at times you could hear them comming at you and other times mostly in a dive through pass you couldn’t. He also mentioned talking to P-51 escort pilots about this and they said that there P-51 at full throttle in a power still could not catch one, infact one pilot indcated that he gave chase to one and seen an speed of over close to 500 mph and the 262 was out of his sight in a few seconds. The pilots in general through that at altitude the 262 was about half again as fast as there P-51’s.

Now what made me start looking into this was I got a chance to talk to an 8th airforce P-51 pilot about a mont ago. what he said was very interesting. I asked him out of all the german fighters which one was the hardest to dogfight. His answer was it depended who was flying it, but he really hated the me262’s. His exact words were those sob’s could climb like a rocket and would come through the bomber formations supersonic. My next question was what made you think they were going that fast. His answer was as they would come diving in you could see the smoke trails from there jets then you would see a white vapor come over the nose and off the wings in a cone at that point the smoke stopped.

German 262 pilots (5 of them actually) made reports that in steep high altitude dives the me262 would shake, they would loose control, the airspeeed indcator would read funny or 0, then things would smoothen out and they would regain control. It was very hard to pull out of the dive but when they did the samething would happen. The pilots though this was an flaw in the aircraft becasue at the time it was not known that this is the effect of supersonic flight.

Finally on page 13 of an american pilots handbook on how to fly the me262 issued by the air materiel command at Wright Field Ohio where it was tested tells the test pilots how to fly the 262 “through the sound barrier” this was written in 1946.

These stories coupled with reports of bomber personal hearing boom’s when attacked by 262’s seems to indicate that if they were not going supersonic then they were in very high transonic fight to me.

I always read that the 262 was a subsonic aircraft due to poor engines, not set up to go supersonic, incorrect wing sweep to stop compressability and that messerschmitt himself said it could only go mach .86 before loosing control. But willy did not have any knowledge of transonic or supersonic flight at the time. From what I am reading now with the knowledge we have of supersonic flight that it was possible for a 262 at high alt in the correct weather conditions(not sure what this has to do with it yet?), in a steep 60 degree dive to reach a speed to mach 1.05. If I am understanding this correctly the 262 has to quickly transistion to supersonic easing it in will not work.

At the end of one of the reports read this “The US had no interest in emphasizing any german achievements made during the war so this was covered up. How else are these german pilots describing supersonic fight a full 2 years before yaeger? not to mention when yaeger did break the sound barrier it was kept top seceret untill the 1950’s.”

Alot of info I know, just wanted to see what you all thought of this as I know very little about supersonic fight myself so I can not tell if this is based in fact or if the guys writing this just blowing smoke. I have read both the 262 pilot reports and later interviews with them. I have also herd stories (there are alot of them) of allied airmen encounters with 262’s. What I have not read is the american 262 pilot hand book, still looking for a copy of this.

Anyway all the research about the 262 made me build this bird. This is a 1/48 Tamiya me262. This kit is very good, I had a photo etch set but used very little of it. The fit of it was so good in fact that I actually created gaps in some places to simulate late war german poor fitting panels. I build this for myself more as a conversation piece than anything else. I didn’t go wild on it. The model depects white 9 flown by Guido Mutke on sept, 4 1945. Mutke claims to have gone supersonic in this me262. I have only one fuzzy pic so I did alot of good old guessing as to what it looked like. I did not highlight the fuselage panels lines too much becasue these were filled and hard to see on the actual 262, but access panels and engines work panels were poor fitting and open often due to short engine life and hard use so they got the works. I also noticed scorching on the rear of the engins outlets in some pics and simulated this as well. Finally I opted to keep all the panels closed to show off the exterior lines. After I took the pics I noticed some flaws so I will be making some adjustments so to speak. I will also be adding a base, when this is done I will post a few more pics. Let me know what you think.

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Very interesting read and a beautiful model.

Thanks for sharing!

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Hi There,

Firstly If this is your idea of "I didnt go wild on it", I for one cant wait to see one that you do. Very nice build.

As for the Mach 1 262, a very interesting theory. As history is written by the victors a lot of what you say could be true. German war time production was in a chaotic state at the end yet surely some well manufactured materials must have reached the front dispite of all this slave labour saboutage we read about, and the fact that German aviation technology was so far ahead of allied designs can not be disputed. The suppression of anything built by an enemy that outclassed your own equipment was and probably still is a fact and do I remember a story somewhere where a 262 owned by Howard Hughes was rejected from a post war air race when competeing with a current USAF fighter?.

See now you`ve gone and got me thinking,

Regards Gary

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I found this info very interesting. If they could come up with US test pilots who flew it and have them confirm that this is true that would be great. They may have been ordered not to talk about it. I know Capt. Eric Brown flew the 262’s but don’t know if he was involved in speed test. I also know Warren bodie flew captured german fighters after the war but don’t know if he flew the 262 (dont think so). So until someone spills the beans about this like you said Garyallum it’s a good theory based on the info at hand and that it.

I have friend that does know alot about supersonic flight and he said that the 262 had a thin 28 degree sweep wing. but that this didn’t matter becasue if you put enough power behind it it will go supersonic or come apart. After this he kinda lost me something about if the air inside the jet engine if the air is still subsonic and german jet engine being correct where as the allies actually had a different type of less efficent jet at the time? Then how maybe only part of the 262 was supersonic? don’t know how only a part of the aircraft can do this, but what do I know. Anyway I’m going to sit down and talk with him. He has herd stories of the 262 going supersonic but never gave it much though. I was hoping someone on here had caught wind of this or knew more about this subject but I guess I’m solo on this. here’s a few links to info I found on the net about G Mutke flight

http://mach1.luftarchiv.de/mach1.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/hans-guido-mutke

hear are the finished pics with it on the base. The gear doors, formation lights and a few other odds and ends were added. I have build several 262’s the this kit is the best I have seen. The only things I added were seat belts and insterment panel photo etch this kit has alot of good molded detail right out of the box. Garyallum the next one I will get crazy with. I love added detail and usually do load my kit up. this kit has alot of possibilites and I have another on my shelf waiting to be built.

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Outstanding. Love that scroungy nose gear.

Ken

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That’s a nice build you have there that’s for sure! Very well done. [tup]

Aerodynamics as a norm says that the 262 could not be controled at supersonic speed. The elevators simply would not work. It has to do with compression etc. The engines also do not have the capacity to allow for supersonic use. They would disintigrate. The enginerring in those days, while advanced, did not know enough that air going into a turbine MUST be sub-sonic. That is why you see the intakes on some modern fighters move (ie: F-15’s) and others have a noticably smaller intake than the exhaust.

Now, on the other hand, I know Barron Von Stromeir. He was Willy Messerschmitts cheif test pilot and engineer and his personal right hand man. I have listened to his stories about the 262 and other planes he flew to great extent. He is the first to admitt that it could not go super sonic. The design simply would not allow it. As a former military pilot myself, I very much agree that it is so improbable that it actually went super sonic and SURVIVED! For me, the aircraft that first went super sonic remains the Me 164! (good luck ‘googling’ this one folks!)

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Wow!!! Nice story, nice looking plane and HUGE pictures to boot!!

And the pictures are in focus!!!

Way to go!!

Chris

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There is a discrepancy in the date in your original post and on the card in your photos ,Sep. 4th 1945, (war already over) and the date indicated in both links you supplied, April 9th 1945. Just thought I’d bring it to your attetion.

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Hi Pheonix

Thanks for the reply, and follow up links. They make interesting reading. Like you Im puzzled how a part of an aircraft can be supersonic but the rest isnt, but I rember reading somewhere that the tips of the prop on a Harvard are supersonic and thats why it makes that annoying noise wherever it goes.

Facts, wether historical or scientific, but military in particular seem to be hard to pin down at times, for example the 109 after the swiss prewar air races was the fastest thing on two undercart legs but in fact the Heinkel 100/112 was faster, and that further record smashes were carried out by the Me209, a completely different design. These facts being hidden for propganda purposes.

Now I don`t the know the speed of sound, or where it is measured heightwise, but I know that a war time Me163 Komet supposedly passed the 1,000Km an hour barrier during official testing and was completly useless afterwards as a flyable airframe. (I think this is what Drew refers to as a Me164)Now is this faster than sound as 1,000 Km per Hour seems a lot to me?, but it was measured by the Germans so should this be discounted as propaganda?.

How about sonic bangs, are these reported?

Nobody is going to allow a genuine 262 to be flown like this so the argument will probably go back and forth as a nice story but… but if computers can be programed to design aircraft so well that its flying characteristics are know before any metal is cut on the build, then surely somthing approaching an answer must be available if the time and money were available

regards Gary

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Gary, at the huge risk of stirring up a major debate, and I don’t wish to, the Me 164 was the successor to the Me 163 Komet. It was rocket powered also. I have not found much info on it other than one mans (the engineer and test pilot) recollections. It had broke the sound barrier several times (apparently) and was captures with the 262 plant. Barron Von Stromeir was there and surrendered the plant to the allies. He has told me the story several times how they all stood on the 262’s so no one would shoot at them. The 163’s and 164’s were taken away in less than a day. The 262’s were second. As he is due to arrive here in a week or so, I will ask him for more info and hope there are some pics that have survived that he is willing to share.

Drew

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phoenix, that is a fine looking 262. Excellent job on the finish.

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Going back to the first post. Pierre Clostermann said that the Tempest was the only Allied prop-driven WWII fighter that could approach speed of sound velocities, which is why they were tasked with ‘rat patrols’ trying to catch Me262s coming back to base. Even the Tempests, as fast as they were, had to try on a 262 in a dive or else it was no go.

The little I know of aerodynamics says the 262 couldn’t go supersonic and effectively survive. And conceptually, I am trying to imagine the noise that a waist gunner expereinced- wind, bomber engine noise, machine guns going off all around you, flak, whatever. Could a waist gunner really hear some enemy aircraft from several hundred yards away?

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Nice, I have Trumpter’s 262 under my work table and looking at yours is getting me jacked to start mine. Thanks for the pics and information!!

SteveK

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Superb model! The paint finsh and weathering are excellent.[tup]

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Hi Drew,

Thanks for the info and I am ready and willing to be corrected, but I thought that the sucessor to the 163 was the Me/Ju 263, and that the (Bf)Me 164 was a courier a/craft project. As an avid fan of Luft 46 and late war aircraft any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated and recieved.

Thanks Gary

PS sorry Pheonix for bending your post away from its original line of intent.

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After sitting down with some people who have alot of letters before there name I got my answers. In terms of operation the 262 is a high speed subsonic aircraft. If you take into consideration raw data the 262 on paper can not achive supersonic flight. The engines in the transonic region would have had there airflow disrupted causing and air/fuel inbalance and reducing the power (hence the allied pilots seeing the smoke disapper from the engins in a power dive). Second as any aircraft approches the speed of sound air resistance starts to go way up and thus more power is required to push it over. thrid transonic buffeting and shock waves would have most likely tore the airframe apart (this is what happened to the other 262’s) . BUT as happens many times what is writen on paper does not hold true in actual operation.

Pilots in piston aircraft have experienced compressability and this usually ends up in the aircraft in question either locking the control surfaces untill it reduces speed back down to a controlable level or in a dive this would be terminal. German pilots who flew the 262 were not newbies and many of them flew enough to know the differances between compressability and hold on somethings not right here. transonic flight is different feel then that. No other pilot in any other aircraft reported the effects like that of the 262. This along with test data collected after the war did prove the 262 was capable of high transonic fight. In fact the 262 was on the very edge of supersonic flight in testing. The flight manual from wright pat teachs the pilots how the fly the 262 in a manner where supersonic air can be tested over the airframe without destroying the plane, more on this later. In a previous post I thought he said some parts of the aircraft were moving supersonic, I miss understood. AIR over some parts of the 262 were moving supersonic. You can have air supersonic airflow over parts of the airframe without it going supersonic. Most WWII piston fighters in a dive the air passing around the props tips would actually go supersonic. The vapor seen coming off the 262 is the same thing you at an airshow when jet fighter makes a high speed pass (the white cone seen in pictures). This is air moisture being compressed and happens as transonic speeds and is not an indcation of supersonic speeds.

Now the gray area. In every reoprt except one when the pilot reported the unusual event (supersonic flight) the 262 was destroyed, supersonic flight has that effect when the aircraft in question wa not set up to do it . Hans Guido Mutke flight is of extream interest becasue he seems to be the only 262 pilot to take it supersonic and actually land the plane. His account accurately explaines what happens when the cross the sound barrier to a tee. His 262 was landed safely but was unflyable in fact he was luck to get it on the gound it was destroyed. The damage to his aircraft was inspected by many people on the ground including fellow pilot Heinz Bar and others involved in the 262. The overspeed damage displayed is exactly what you would expect from a 262 had it gone supersonic. The wings were almost seperated from the fuselage and missing alot of rivits, engines parts showing fatigue/failure, and the tail had sever stress damage.

If all the enviromental conditions were right, he was at the right speed, alititude, dive angle, with 2 good engines and manged to cross in into the supersonic region of flight fast enough that 262 would suffer only short duration buffeting damage then it is highly likely he took it supersonic. Air building up infront of the 262 engines would have slowed and delayed the effect of supersonic air entering the engines and blowing them out so to speak. In short he was in the right place at the right time, with the right 262. After he broke the sound barrier he would have regained control as he stated, guido was only supersonic for a very short period before loosing speed due to engine and airframe damage. fight sinulators state that iit is possible for a 262 to go 1.05 mach, but they can not take into account all factors. also at high altitudes and speeds air speed indcators of that day were very inaccurate making a speed comparsion impossible. The top safe operating speed of the 262 was what messerschmitt stated about .85 to .90 mach.

to answer the question in a but shell is the 262 a supersonic aircraft? no way, unless you want to fly in into pieces. A few died trying to go supersonic and one luck pilot most likely got away with it ONCE.

Garyallum thanks for your input. it was good talking to you.

I didn’t even notice the date worng on that thanks. That was my fault, the wife has a scrapbook program that prints all kinds a fonts and I gave her the date the way the luftwaffe reasearch spits it out day/month/year, she tryped it up month/day/year. dough!

Not a popular conversation piece either I’m 2 for 2 as of late. this stuff is hard to follow and somewhat off topic. A fellow modeler said I weather my aircraft like armor. I replied, funny thing a armor modeler taught me much of what I know about weathering.

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It’s occasionally interesting to listen to eye witness accounts of people who are on the cusp of understanding a new technology. My grandpa got to see a P-61 flying on more than one occasion and still swears that plane could break the sound barrier. Preposterous. Even with the 262 vs the X-1. The X-1 required a number of re-inventions in the field of aerodynamics. It wasn’t really about brute force; sooner or later somene would make a powerful enough to get there. Shoot, the germans did that easily enough with the motors that drove the V-1’s. The real issue was control. And the 262 wasn’t designed with those specific issue in mind. So it kinda like the stories about how all these other guys flew before the Wrights. In the end, the Wrights were the still first to get a heavier than air object off the ground, land it at the same level from which it was launched, etc. I guess sometimes being succesful does give you a certain ability to define the terms of your success.

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nice model Pheonix

I see this is a hot topic. well i would like straghten a few so called facts as for the flameouts it is unlikely this would have happened due to fuel to air imbalance but more likely that it was cause by a phenomenon know as compressor stall . it occurs when an axial flow jet engine gets super sonic air flow instead of subsonic flow causing the blades of the conpressor stage to exceed it critical angle of attack causing it to stall making the blades to buffet in turn distroying the engines as for modern supersonic aircraft this problem is overcome by making air intake smaller than the jet engines intake useing the phenomenon known as venturi effect which slows the air flow enough to turn the sub sonic again

as for wing sweep it has been proven that straight or tapered wings can go super sonic like the x1 and the f-104 but it is undesirable because it takes alot of power to over come the high total drag that the wing produces not to mention the stability problems involved the is why the f-104 had a high roll rate and wing sweep sloves the high drag problem by delaying supersonic air flow over the wing and thus also increasing stability in process

as for wing thickness, thick wings dont work as supersonic flow is almost impossible as air flows faster over the wing that under producing lift (venturi effect)so the top of the wing produces supersonic flow before under the wing causing a phenomenon know as wing flutter which will destroy the wing so thin wings are best for supersinic flow and lift is produced by flat plat lift and supersonic flow is reached overand under the wing at the same time

and as for elevators it has been proven the they do not work for supersonic flight and there even has been reports of them working in reverse due to the turbulence caused on the horizontal stabilizer by the super sonic shock wave so the stabulator was invented by the british and all super sonic fighters feature the stabulator like the F-14 ,F-15 ,F-16 and the F-18 just to name afew

so the 262 was very unlikely to go supersonic and you guys got a quick free ATG (aircraft technical and general) lesson

and i am sure DrewH will agree with me in my views on supersonic flight

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I disagree with your grandfather, although the plane is nicely done. The first plane to cross the supersonic speed was Bell X-1. The struts of the Me-262 would simply solapse under the circumstances of the supersonic transit point. When you reach the supersonic speed, there are 3 shock waves that hit the wing. The drag is incredible and the wing is under much stress. When you fly at supersonic speed, the airfoil is no more needed. That is because the air becomes concrete, it’s resistance is great, and you are practically flying like on a rail a concrete wall holds you underneath, and the engine’s job is to only push you forward. The Me-262’s wings will not be able to resist such a force and they will break. Try it out on any simulator that uses real physics. The wings will break off- that is called flatter, when wing-tip vibration is so great, that it is higher then at the root of the wing, and they break off. (This is also the reason why you see wing-tips of Boeing B747 and some others bent upward, to resist flatter). That those P-51D (or other type) pilots have not been able to catch up with Me-262, does not at all mean the jet aircraft was flying at a super-sonic speed. It might have just as well flew at a speed 20 miles fater then the P-51s, so they couldn’t catch up. It was maybe a metaphore, and your grandpa wanted to express the Me-262’3 neck-breaking speed. But again, the plane you did is a very nice one, although it looks like a computer-designed one.

Daniel.

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Phoenix- again, that model looks great. The weathering to me is nicely done and looks nothing like a tank (you left off the mud and rust [(-D])

I would like for you to consider a few facts. The sound barrier was a mythical dragon in those days. We now know the the numbers though. At sea level, with 29.92" mercury on a barometer, 70 deg F the speed is 770 mph. That’s 1238 Kmh. This is factual. At altitude the speed does decrease. As 30,000 ft above sea level, it reduces to aproximatly 650mph or 1046Kmh. Using the same sea level conditions. Using the data you provided, 1000 kmh, that is 621 mph. the listed max airspeed was 950kmh or 590mph I do not see how a 262 could have done it. They did not operate that high. 15-20,000 ft in altitudes were considered high for fighters and dogfights rarely happened even at those altitudes on escort missions. I make the speed of sound (my calcs btw) to be around 700 mph or 1,125 kmh at 20,000 ft.

Correct my calculations if they are wrong, I am known to do that. I will ask the Cheif test pilot who flew and trained most pilots on 262’s about this when I see him next. I will definantly let you know through PM’s.

Drew