this confuses me, which came first? i think the tiger came before the panther, but the panther is panzer 5, and the tiger is panzer 6. the tiger had better armour and a bigger gun, but the panther was more advanced with slopped armour and a high velocity gun.
anyone know the answer?
I believe that it was the panzer 1a, due to the fact that it’s name implies that it is the first model, of the first tank…
Greg,you are roght in thinking that the Tiger came first as production gos.As for the Panther it came after the Tiger into battle.The panzer numbers might be a series model of a different type of tank.I know that the Tigers are of the MK series,the Panther is a wholenew ballgame on that type.Digger
Hey t. You’re right the Tiger I was already on the drawing board and prototypes were being produced when the Wehrmacht and its Pz Divisions encountered the T-34 tanks. The Germans immediately decided to come up with a tank of their own, with sloped armor, high velocity gun and better cross country performance. Thus the Panther was born. Why they designated it Pz V, I’ll have to get back to you on that.
TigerII
HUH ! Are you refering to the english disignation of the Tiger as the MK. VI ?? because they also refered to the Panther as the MK. V.
To breack down each part of the word. Pz is short for Panzerkampfwagen which means Tank. The number, in this case V and VI is the type of tank. The first type was Pz. I then Pz. II and so forth. I am not fully aware why the Tiger is Pz VI and the Panther is Pz. V when infact the Tiger was put into production before the Panther. I am staying with my parents the holidays so I do not have access to my reference books, I have how ever brought one of my panther books, I will have a look to see if it holds some answers.
Just to add fuel to the fire, here are the excerpts from Acthung Panzer regarding the Panther and Tiger respectively:
Panther:
“The Panzerkampfwagen V Panther, next to the PzKpfw VI Tiger, is the best-known German tank of World War II. The Panther and the Soviet T-34 are considered to be the best tanks of World War II. When in June of 1941, Germany invaded Russia, Panzertruppe encountered KV series and T-34/76 tanks, which were far superior in firepower and armor protection to any Panzer at the time. It was then decided, because of the constant reports from the Eastern Front to design a new more powerful medium tank, which could be quickly put into production. On November 25th of 1941, Adolf Hitler ordered Wa Pruef start work on the new tank. In December of 1941, Wa Pruef ordered Daimler-Benz and MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg Nuernberg) to design new 30-ton tank armed with 75mm KwK L/70 gun as a response to the Soviet T-34/76 tank. Rheinmetall-Borsig was in charge of the development of the turret for this new tank. In March of 1942, Daimler-Benz was the first to produce their version of VK3002’s design based on previously rejected VK3001 (direct copy of T-34/76) design from January of 1942. Two versions of VK 3001 with different suspensions were designed by Daimler-Benz - one with spring suspension and other with torsion bar suspension. Daimler-Benz VK3002 design was largely based on T-34/76 and was more like a modified German version of it. MAN finished their design of VK3002 in early Spring of 1942.”
Tiger:
"On May 26th of 1941, during the meeting concerning the development of new weaponry, Adolf Hitler ordered both Dr.Porsche and Henschel to supply their designs for a heavy tank, which was to be ready in the summer of 1942. Krupp was in charge of supplying main armament and producing turrets for designs by both Henschel and Porsche. The project was known as the “Tigerprogram”.
…Both, Henschel and Porsche’s prototypes arrived to a station near Rastenburg on April 19th of 1942 and then traveled 11km to Rastenburg, while constantly breaking down.On April 20th of 1942 at 11:00am, both Porsche and Henschel prototypes were presented to Adolf Hitler (on his birthday) in Wolfschanze (Rastenburg), East Prussia. Tests were scheduled for July and preliminary tests proved that the Tiger(P)'s design was far from being perfect and modifications were made, but none of the technical problems were fully solved from the lack time. Both VK4501(P) and VK4501(H) were armed with powerful 88mm KwK 36 L/56 gun, developed from 88mm Flak 36 L/56 gun. Originally, Krupp designed and produced the turret for Porsche’s VK4501, but then it was modified and used by Henschel’s VK4501. The first eight turrets produced had lower sides and a flat roof with raised centre section to allow the gun to be depressed through larger arc."
My guess would be that since the Panther prototype was produced in March vs. the Tiger prototype in April 1942, you have a possible reason as to why they were labelled V and VI respectively.
the Panther is the 5th panzer becouse of its wieght, i think it was Hitler playing about again saying he wanted the heavier Tiger to be 6 and the panther to be 5
Here’s my two cents worth : The Tiger is a heavy, the Panther is a medium. The Panzer lV is a medium. The next revision in a medium tank , whether fielded or not, would be Panzerkampfwagen V, or Panther. The Tiger PzKmp VI, is the sixth revision in HEAVY tank development and just happened to be approved for production. But if one follows this logic, then wouldn’t the tiger ll be Panzer Vll? I think wild bill’s post has the provenance, but what about that Tiger ll designation?
Ahhh I may not know the Panther stuff, but Tigers thats my field. The Tiger II is still a Pz. VI but a different version or model or with the german word another “ausführung” or ausf for short. So the Tiger II was designated as Pz. Kmpfw. VI ausf B. Just as there are Pz.Kmpfw III ausf H, J etc. etc…
All german vehicles also had a Sd.Kfz number, The Tiger I was Sd.Kfz 181 and the Tiger II was Sd.Kfz 182. The command versions or “befehlswagen” of these vehicles had other Sd.Kfz numbers but I can’t remember them. Sd.Kfz is short for “Sonder kraftfarzeug” which roughly translates to special purpose vehicle.
AH HA! Thanks TMN1 for clearing that up! I knew there was a method to the madness. This really conjers up a new brew when we try to answer the topic question now! Any takers out there?
I’m staying out of this one. [:p] I know the dates of designs, prototypes, productions etc., but I can’t remember seeing this question answered in text anywhere, so I’ll spare myself the trouble and have a beer instead. [:D]
heh, i wonder if there is a real answer out there?
the only thing i can think is that the panther was designed first, but the tiger took shorter to go from prototype to production.
sourced this from a book which i trust. the panzers were numbered in order of production. so techincally the tiger was a later model than the panther but the tiger was rushed into production because of the crap hitting the fan against the russian tanks and so it made it out first. by what i’ve read the tiger was actually a fairly simplistic overbuilt tank with relatively low range and maneuvarability + whatever (don’t go jumping down my throat about this) On the other hand the panther was on the drawing board before the tiger came about but wasn’t rushed. i don’t remember if it was a competing project or what but the developers took their time and came up with the panzer 5 designated the panther which was beat to the front by the panzer 6 tiger.
hmm the design on the Tiger was started much earlier than that of the Panther. At first it wasn’t called the Tiger ofcourse, but V.K 36.02 ( Errr I don’t have my books right here, but its something like that, maybe its 32.02 ) It was intended as a 36 ton tank which in 1939 would have been a heavy tank, but it slowly developed into the 56 ton Tiger. This is also the course of some of the problems with the tank, the transmision and engine designed for the 36 ton tank didn’t change much before it wa installed in the 56 ton Tiger, so it was ofcourse underpowered and suffered from a weak transmision.
Both designs ( Tiger and Panther ) suffered from insufficient testing before being rushed into production.
This doesn’t help us with the numbering problem, its just interesting information.