What's up with the BIG Heller kits?

Modeling Subjects Ships
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Hi All-

So here’s a new thread that may be a tiresome subject.

Please allow me to preface my queries by saying that I hope to avoid the bashing of a certain large scale Heller kit (cough-Soleil Royal-cough)…I’m just looking for info on build-ability of kits, both in terms of kit quality, as well as skill level required.

On to my observation/question:

Looking online for WIPs and build reviews for the Big Heller kits is a crap shoot…I can find a number of initial posts from those starting a build, but very often they continue for a number of progress updates, and finally end abruptly, with no conclusion. Is this likely because the builder:

Lost interest and didn’t finish the build?

Realized they weren’t up to the challenge and bowed out?

Reached an impasse, or otherwise got frustrated by the kit’s shortfalls?

Finished the build, but just decided to no longer document his/her progress (seems unlikely)?

The Pete Coleman Victory Forum is obviously a great place to find info for builds of the HMS Victory, so I concede that there IS a place to follow builds and gain insight into planning for a similar project…but, even there I’ve seen numerous dead-end threads, and especially in the Soleil Royal section they have there.

What I’m getting at is this:

I recently have obtained both of the Big Heller kits, and I am ambitiously thinking that I can start building one of them next year. Which one to build first still remains to be seen (they both have terrible instructions!)…my concern is twofold:

-Are the kits buildable, or are they fraught with pitfalls…I get discouraged by ill-fitting parts, and incorrect assembly instructions.

-Do I have the chops to pull one of these builds off? After going through the parts, and reading the giant instruction sheets of both kits, the impression is mindblowingly intense! I felt similarly when I built my first ship kit a few years ago (and that was a low-end basic kit), so I suppose I’ve come a long way since then…but seriously, I wonder if these Heller kits are on a whole different level…they seem to be. Comparatively, the Imai kits I’ve been building seem super-simple now!

Anyone with experience building either of these kits (Victory, Soleil Royal)…I would like to hear your impressions about the buildability of them, things to look out for, and whether it will be a 5-year process of slowly descending into a spiral of madness, from which I may never return?

What’s the deal?

David

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We’ll, I won’t repeat any of my various criticisms of the Soleil Royal (probably my un-favorite kit of all time). Maybe it’s relevant to mention that I did build one about 35 tears ago, and,as I remember, it took me about two years. (That was fairly steady spare-time work while I was in grad school.) The time includes quite a few hours of making my own rigging line, wood decks, etc. - most of which I now regard as a waste of time given the ridiculous-looking finished product.

One practical matter that may be relevant: regardless of what one thinks of the kits otherwise, the blocks and deadeyes in both the SR and the Victory kits are worthless. (A two-piece rigid mold can’t produce a part with holes in it and a groove around it.). To replace them with wood or metal aftermarket parts would cost several hundred dollars (though not all at once).

Dave, I’m sure you could handle either of those kits, though they’d take at least a couple of years apiece to finish to your standards. The big Heller kit that I think you ought to consider, though, is the 1/75 La Reale. For my money it’s the best detailed and most accurate of the batch, and I think it’s particularly well suited to your distinctive style. I strongly recommend checking it out.

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Thanks, John!

In fact, I have a Heller La Reale in the closet…it was donated to me by a member of this forum (thanks again, Rob!)…a ferry trip across Puget Sound and a couple hours hanging out with a skilled ship modeler was great price to pay for such a sweet model!

I’ve heard before that people regard the La Reale De France as a top-notch kit…maybe I should consider it for an upcoming build. I should see if I can find a WIP or build log of that one…

I know what you mean about the deadeyes in the V and SR…they’re just discs with 3 holes…the groove is hardly groovy, and I wouldn’t tempt fate by trying to wrap a shroud end around it…that would be an exercise in frustration many, many times over!

I can see how adding after market parts can get spendy, especially with the vast numbers of small parts to account for…but considering that a kit of this magnitude will take so much time to finish…the value per hour of entertainment is still pretty reasonable…

One thing I noticed in the instructions for the Victory was that Heller had the forethought to mold the deadeyes in the correct distance from each other, and opposing each other on the sprues, so that the lanyards can be run BEFORE removing the deadeyes…kind of a nifty built-in deadeye distance gauge!..

Too bad the parts won’t hold a shroud! haha

Anyway, thanks again for the insight, I’ve got a couple more Imai kits to start and finish before I make my decision, but I definitely want to be sure I’m making a good choice for myself…

D

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You’ve reminded me of one other thing anybody undertaking the Heller Victory or SR needs to know: the instructions are scandalous. Especially the English “translations.” These strange documents apparently were written by somebody who (a) couldn’t read French, and (b) hadn’t tried to build either of the models. (I’ve heard that the English instructions for the brief incarnations in Imai boxes are somewhat better.). Even in French, though, the instructions are awful - vague, poorly written, and laden with errors (especially when it comes to rigging, which, it seems, nobody at Heller understood. To build either of those kits, even out of the box, be prepared to do a lot of reading.

That any company would enclose such written garbage in any kit - let alone one at that kind of price - is a scandal of the hobby industry. I’ve been b----ing about it, in print, in letters, and on the web, for about thirty-five years, but I’ve seen no evidence that Heller has listened,

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Seams appropriate to pose this question here …how about the “other” big Heller boats, the windjammers. I just got ahold of the five masted 1/150 scale Pruessan kit and its quite large. Any observations, warnings to be aware of?

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HMS Victory:

I’ve spent four years and am on the upper gun deck. Granted I have put it aside for a year (twice).

There are no problems with the kit itself.

I have the Imai instructions which are in Japanese and are infinitely more useful than the Heller ones.

One significant problem is AMS because the scale is large enough that it just invites scratchbuilding.

But the task is also overwhelming and there’s really no way to build it out of sequence to entertain yourself.

There are 100 guns and each is nine parts.

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the one thing a lot of you blokes seem to forget it’s a model and I loved making it.,I don’t have any friends that are into modeling and they love looking at my attempt of the soleil royal., it’s not up to the standard of most of you fellows but i’m proud of it .,I only wish hellar would do some more really big kits

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I have been working on the Soleil Royale for about ten years now, so I would envy anyone who could build it in a year. It is one of those complex kits that you burn out on quickly and have to put it aside to work on something simpler for awhile. I got into the rigging a couple of years ago, and that has really slowed me down. I find I can only work on rigging about half an hour at a time, and must take a long break. The concentration is wearying. And there is so much rigging! Essentially the SR is a four-master, with shrouds and ratlines on the sprit mast as well as the others.

But I really like the kit. It is definitely buildable. It is just that there are so many parts and details. The rigging diagrams in the instructions are quite good compared to other sail ships I have built. Molding is great, fit is fairly good.

I always pitch the plastic rigging fittings and buy aftermarket blocks and deadeyes, like Mr. Tilley. That is getting harder to do since the vendors I have relied on in the past seem to be reducing their lines of rigging fittings.

Even partially complete, the SR always draws much attention when I bring it to model club meetings for a wip show-and-tell.

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Ten years, Don? Dang! But it’s obvious that you are doing a lot of building of other projects along the way…

Good to know the kits are sound, anyway…when the time comes, I’ll definitely be making investments in rigging blocks and deadeyes (and I’ll learn how to make chainplates), and better line. The SR I have is the Imai boxing, and has Imai line (which I don’t mind too much, though there’s only four diameters, and they’re all dark brown)…but the Victory has two spools of this crummy white thread which is obviously not worth using. NOTE: I actually emailed Heller about a couple of broken parts, and they said they would send the replacements “in a weekend”…nice that they take care of their customers!

I will definitely have to get ahold of some of the Imai instructions for both kits…my SR has the Aurora instructions, and the Victory has the translated Heller ones…but it sounds like the Imai plans are the best for illustrations? I should see what kind of instructions the La Reale has…

This is good info, you guys…thanks a bunch!

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Your own expectations are the vital factor in determining whether the kits are of a good quality or junk. I’m firmly in Don’s camp on this and continue to enjoy building the SR. I’m not a sailer, didn’t live when the ships sailed and have utterly no idea how they’re supposed to look so I’m more than happy to build it out of the box. I’m well into my second year and still have the bulk of the rigging left. My problem is that I find it tedious and can only take it for a few weeks and have to stop, sometimes for many months. The ship itself went together without any major issues and I enjoyed doing it. There’s a significant amout of painting but I also enjoyed doing that and love the way the ship looks, even without too much rigging not to mention the upper masts. I also suggest after market parts. As for the instructions there are alternatives. The original release was by Aurora and the plans were in English and very readable. I have them available for anyone who wants them in both PDF and printed versions. Send me an email address or mailing address and I’ll get them out to you. Because of the complexity of the rigging the printed version, on 11x17" paper, may be a better alternative, especially if your eyes are not as young as they once were. Somewhere I also have the Imai instructions (in Japanese) and in printed form only so if you want them I’ll send out a search party. With something this complex another perspective when it comes to illustrations can’t hurt but so far I haven’t taken my own advice. Because you’ve taken the time to reach out about the builds then I’d say ignore the negative folks and start building. You’ll love it!

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David- buy your blocks and line as you go one part at a time . I spent well over $100 on the cable, messenger and gun tackle alone. I just looped line around the lower deck guns and middle deck guns and will only rig the upper deck guns fully where they are visible in the middle of the ship from above.

But there’s most of it sitting in a box still.

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Thanks, Jeff! Like I said, I’ve got a couple builds to go this year before I dig into one of these Heller kits that are lurking in the corner (gotta hone my skills just a bit more!), but I definitely will be excited to start! I’d love to get a copy of the Imai plans for either or both of the SR or Victory kits…if you’d be willing to mail me a set, I’ll happily cover the shipping/printing cost. (PM to follow)…I already have the Aurora plans, but I want as much reference as I can get ahold of, you know?

Thanks again!

Dave

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GM-

Yes, I’ll be piece-mealing the after market fittings/line…good call! I’ll have to look for a reliable source of good fittings at decent prices…

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John and I respectfully disagree on our assessments of the Le Soleil Royal. I have found period drawings showing that the most oft-criticized aspect of the kit, the shallowness of the lower hull, was actually a frequent characteristic of French ships of the period. That said, the kit does have its flaws, such as the closed stern galleries, the seeming lack of deck furniture, the lack of a way to attach the yards, etc. Several years ago, we had a lengthy post going called Le Soleil Royal: The Ultimate Building Guide that addresses various corrections to the basic kit. You should check it out.

I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed building the kit, as well as the Victory and Le Chebec.

Bill

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Bill-

Yes, I’ve read though the Ultimate Building guide…it IS lengthy! That thread definitely goes over a lot of details regarding the kit, as well as a lot of back and forth regarding the controversial “shortcomings.”

It’s a good reference point, for sure!

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So no one has built a big Heller windjammer? Rats… BTW I also have the Soleil Royal in storage.

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I have the Pourquoi Pas? in my stash. It looks to be a good model.

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While I have not finished one of the larger scale ones, I did build one of the medium scale ones, the French SOL le Superbe. It gave me a Superbe result. :slight_smile:

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Hi David,

I’ve been on both ends of the spectrum building these models. SR took me 8.5 months to complete including ditching the plastic sails for tissue paper, opening up the galleries and setting her in a waterline, everything else out of box, I also had no fitment issues and I’m very pleased with results and love the compliments. Victory on the other hand is going on 7 years now primarily because I’m back dating her to 1765 and have had fitment issues regarding the poop deck and the stern not mating up correctly.

I’m of the mind set to build to your own satisfaction and you can’t go wrong, as these kits produce stunning displays.

Michael D.

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For what little it’s worth, I did finish the Heller Soleil Royal, about thirty-five years ago when it was a brand-new kit. By the time I got done with it (about two years after I’d started), I was thoroughly fed up with it - and, as those who’ve read the early Forum threads on this subject know, I still am. But the fact that I think a kit is junk is no reason for others to decline to build it. Surely everybody on this Forum knows what I identify as the problems with the kit are; it’s for each individual modeler to decide how serious those problems are.

Shortly after I published a review of the SR in a British magazine, another such publication sent me a review copy of the (brand new) Heller Victory. That one is a totally different kettle of fish. It has its weaknesses (the hundreds of useless rigging parts, the empty small boats, etc.), but every kit does. In my opinion the Heller kit is the most accurate rendering of the Victory in kit form - even surpassing, in some ways, the 1/72 one from Calder/Jotika. (The latter doesn’t faithfully reproduce the “anchor stock” planking on the wales, and it uses “dummy” gun barrels on the lower decks.) But it is an enormous project. I never started mine (I gave the kit away prior to a change of residence), and, apart from a few pictures in magazines and ads, I’ve never seen one finished. But in the years I’ve been on this Forum I’ve seen a lot of them started.