Hello everyone. This is more oriented towards German armor freaks like myself, but I noticed tamiya offers 2 tank 131’s in two of their Tiger 1 kits. Tamiya offers decals for a tank 131 of Tunasia (this also happens to be the restoration project at the Bovington Tank Museum) in their early Tiger 1 kit, but offer decals for a tank 131 of Normandy in their mid prod. Tiger 1 kit. I made both tigers and entered two tigers that both had the same number, 131 in a contest a while back. I thought it kind of odd that two different tanks would have the same number. I knew German armor was given identification numbers for the vehical number of the panzer division and so on. They were used at different times throughout the war though, so I entered them both at the same time anyway. I was immediatley shot down for having the “same” tank at the contest. I believe Tamiya’s Sdkfz 251/1 halftrack instructions explains how the German armor numbering system works, but anyway I just wanted to see if anyone knew about the two Tiger 1’s with the identification number of 131. Thanks
Yeh, it does have the correct thing-for german markings-the 251/1 that is, hold on a sec
The 251/1 says 131 would be the first company, 3 platoon, 1st vehicle.
Also, division markings are little symbols, and each symbol is unique to that one division
Your tigers, might not have had this marking, and it doesn’t matter. You were wrongfully shot down-can’t they see that it is a completely different version? and what difference does it make that there are two 131’s?
Obviously(not saying all i just said was correct,) but they are barking up the wrong tree
All I know is that There were two different 131’s, I dont understand the numbering, but Tunasia’s 131 was part of the Afrika Korps and Normandy’s 131 was something different. Thanks.
This is normandy’s 131
Go here to see Tunasia’s 131
http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/journal3.htm
lol, tough luck, man
i would think that each division would have a company1, platoon3, tank1.
those running the show shoulda been aware of this
Thanks, I’ll do some more research but there’s really nothing out there, or at least I think.
1st Company, 3rd platoon, 1st vehicle. There is no magic in these 3 numbers, they can occur anywhere. If the judges really disqualified your model for this reason, they are chumps. Any award from such a show would be meaningless, they are not qualified to be judges.
couldnt they tell they had different cammo?
tell them next time that the Tiger 007 isnt James Bomds
-Very funny, I thought the same when I looked at the decals that came with it. My model wasn’t actually disqualified, but when I entered it I took some heat from the judges for having the same vehicle numbers. I didn’t know exactly how the German number system worked, but all I could tell them was I knew for sure they were two different tanks and they could tell too from the paint job and the difference in production styles. Looks like a combination of vehical numbers and panzer division markings distinguish the tank. Should of pulled out the 251/1 intsructions before entering! [:I] Thanks for your help everyone.
unfortunately it seems alot of modeling judges arent fit to wear the title
in my area ive seen the same panther win over and over. the guy just adds more aftermarket detail kits to it and repaints it, BUT he also happens to hang out with alot of the judges on the scene here. my friend did a great japanese SP AT gun mired in a swamp, but the aformentioned judges disqualified it cause they couldnt inspect the underside for proper painting and such because it was affixed to the plaster molding the mud! Oh well a tip for next time cut the 131 into slices and make 311 (radio call for indecent exposure) or 113 even 
and remember the real judges are the people you show the kit to with No prize to give away. IE your friends
I had a book, from the library, that actually had pictures of that tank in Bovington before, during and after capture! Being that I have the memory of a idler wheel, I can’t give you the title right now, but I will find out. I also ordered Jentz’ Combat Tactics, which is supposed to cover individual units and such, and if it lives up to the rest of his books, won’t be disappointing. That should be here this weekend.
From what I remember, each unit was responsible for painting the numbers according to plans as well as camo, and they simply reflected comp, plat,tank as discussed above.
A lot changed towards the defense of France when remaining units and new were reorganized with the SS.
I will certainly post answers when the new book arrives.
Seems kind of weird that the judges would be so unknowledgeable…
Here’s another point, I’ve never seen a picture of a Tiger with more than 3 numbers on the turret. Do the judges think the Germans only had 999 Tigers? I’m glad I don’t do the contest bit.
Before we get on judges, consider this.
All judges are volunteers, often drafted the day of the show. Most judges don’t know everything about every vehicle we judge. That’s impossible. At least when following IPMS guidelines, the ID numbers would be among the LAST things I’d be looking at. The level of appplication of those numbers would be among the first things I’d be looking at. While the majority of attendees are scouring the vendors, socializing having lunch, having a grand old time complaining about the judges, they are struggling with determinnig which of two excellent models gets to take first place, or conversely which piece of glued stained, brush marked, misalligned piece of garbage is going to have to take third because so few good kits showed up.
Gothig, have you helped with judging when you went to a contest? When the organizers call for volunteers, do you offer your knowledge? Certainly the judges could use your expertise so they can stop awarding the same tank awards, show after show. People who go to a lot of shows get to know each other and socialize. That’s not home cooking, that’s just human nature.
Armomaster, as a frequent judge with 20 years’ experience at judging, I would not question why a builder entered two models of a Tiger tank in a contest. I might not, on initial glance, notice they were two different variants but I would notice the similarity of the call numbers. My first thought would lean to your creativity at building the same vehicle at two points in its life until I noted t hat they were, in fact different variants.
Wipw, the numbers, as noted above, are not sequential, but references the placement of the tank in the unit. As previously implied in this thread, there were many Tigers with 131 on the side. Simultaneously. When calling names, one should be very careful of one’s facts, no?
As to disqualification for having the same numbers, that would be absurd, since each model is judged on its own merits.
ajlafleche;
You are right, I stand corrected and appologize. I have edited my comment.
Bill
Aeromaster. This is all part and parcel of entering comps. You have to take the good with the bad. One of the guys in my club got pinged for leaving the horizontal seam on the late model Panther Ausf G mantlet - any photo will show it is meant to be there.
Another guy got pinged for too much sag in the tracks on his KV1, even though he had a picture of the vehicle he modelled that clearly showed it correct.
Both guys were beaten by a guy from another club, who happened to be a sponsor of the show - go figure.
Be satisfied in yourself, and if an award does come your way, treat that as a bonus not the desired result.
It’s ArmorMaster petbat and I build tanks. Thats ok [8D], and thanks everyone. One of my 131’s won the national award (I gotta get pics up sometime![:(!]), while the other I trashed because it won nothing. I gotta go back and tell that judge the deal on the numbering system![}:)]
Short but true !!
Try looking in “Tigers in combat” by Wolfgang Scneider the numbering system is well explained here. There was a tank with the number 131 in each the of the army units ( the SS used a different numbering system ) and there was 10 army units from schwere panzerabteilung 501 to 510.
501, 502 and 503 are the oldest, they formed at the same time but 503 recieved its first tanks 1 week earlier than the 2 others. The highest number for a tiger would be 334 ( 3rd company, 3rd platoon, 4th vehicle ) but there are examples of numbers like 721, that happened when a unit or parts of a unit were attached to another army unit for a longer period of time, they then used that units numbering system, this happened in Tunis.
Its not allways easy beeing a judge but if you are unsure if what you are looking at is correct, then find out, don’t shoot down the builder, because he may be right.
Now thats what I’m talking about!