hi, im working on a diorama based in normandy, and wanted to use a Panzerkampfwagen II (panzer II) but i was not sure if this vehicle was used in normandy. Does anybody know?
According to this site, no !!
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/gerafvtemp.html
But thats all I have.
Alrigh thanks for lookinhg that up. However, multiple sources I have read said that some early war vehicles which were quickly obsolete, were taken back from the front line, and either modified individually into new types of vehicles, or just used as cheap scouting vehicles. So although the panzer II was probably not one of the main front line assault tanks, I think theres a very good chance that atleast a few of them would still be used as patrol vehicles. Any other ideas?
While it is true that the Panzer II was withdrawn from general use by early 1943, their chassis being rebuilt into Panzerjäger II and Wespe SP guns, a few could still be found in odd places at later dates, usually with Panzer recruitment and training units. I have seen one photo of a Panzer II Ausf F or G, abandoned in central France, sometime after D-Day, most likely during Operation Cobra. I thought I saved the photo, since it was so odd, but I don’t seem to have kept it in my files. I need to check through my bookmarks to see if it might be there. This may take some time, as I have A LOT of bookmarks.
There were a lot of oddball Panzers to be found in France in 1944, as this became a sort of dumping ground for obsolete German and captured equipment, due to the fact that German combat units were sent to France in the preceding years for rest, training and refit.
Wow, thanks, this is absolutely perfect. I love the vehicle, and i wanted to make it look like an old junker thrown into scouting duty
I might add: This vehicle was repainted in overall Dark Yellow, but if it had additional camouflage paint, it was too faint to be seen in the photograph. Sorry, but I can’t seem to find the link to the photo either. I doubt this vehicle had much of a service life at this time. Lack of spare parts, a worn out drive train and general Allied equipment superiority would have made short work out of this relic of days gone by.
According to the site Achtung Panzer; “Some Panzerkampfwagen II tanks were still in service during the Normandy Battles of 1944 and even in 1945 (145 as of March of 1945).” I have not looked to see if I can verify this statement with further references from any of my books.
Ian: know that if you do use it, have it attached to some infantry division or something like that. The armored units that moved into Normandy to repel the Allies were fairly well equipped units. Their recce units would have had halftracks or armored cars. Certainly not an old junker (with no spare parts) like a Pz II.
The units stationed near the Normandy beachhead were the 21PD (mostly Pz IVs, converted French tanks)and a small training unit with ex-french light tanks.
While I am quite certain of my identification of this being a Panzer II F or G in France during the summer of 1944, I can find no listings for Panzer IIs among the various German armored units in France at this time. I have photos of a Pz IV C of Panzer Regiment 22 in the Spring of 1944, certainly clunkers by this time, but no mention of any Pz II.
Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildung Abteilung 100 could have been the possible source of this stray tank, but they show only 46 ex-french tanks in their inventory at this time. Wherever this junker came from, it does not show up on any of the references I have, (while certainly not entirely conclusive, are quite substantial.)
It could have even been a non-runner, already written off the books, set up as a immobile pillbox as far as I know. The photo showed it sitting between two houses, with a couple of GIs walking past it.
As the others have said, not likely. The above referance to obsolete vehicles being dumped in France is to them being dumped in non-operational states after being worn out and used up, not as being sent there for battle.
While we aren’t finding much evidence to support this question, there were certainly vehicles much more obsolete than Panzer IIs to be found still in use in Normandy, as this photo from page 23 of Steven Zaloga’s D-Day Tank Warfare clearly shows;
Werent the German using french armor in there attempt to put down the Rebellion in paris by the Under ground. What im saying is if the Germans used French armor to put down the Rebellion in Paris and used tank turrets on there bunkers then there wouldve been some sort of Panzer II in Normandy to stop underground activity.
This isn’t the photo I was thinking of, but here is a Panzer II Ausf A in France, 1944, taken from page 49 of Schiffer’s; Panzer, A Pictorial Documentation, by Horst Scheibert.
There is another shot of a Panzer II F still in operation in Italy in 1944 on page 52. It is shown in 3-tone camo in front of a Tiger I.
Now I want to know why this vehicle, and any others like it, weren’t mentioned in any of my other books? My guess is because these were taken from training or security units and not from active combat units, and therefore don’t show up on the inventories of regular Panzer Battalions. This is now the second photo I’ve seen of a Panzer II in France in 1944.
Sometimes I know right where to look for a certain photo, other times I have to wade through a sea of hundreds, looking for that one photo that will answer a question.
Now if we just knew what unit this was from? I think there is a new Osprey book out on German Police Units that might help answer this question. Guess I better throw it on the pile as well.
One of these days I might actually get around to building a model…[(-D]
Hey TL: The Germans used many captured vehicles and AFVs in all sorts of police and secondary units. They also took to modifying some captured vehicles too. The most famous of these were the so-called Becker conversions (after Maj. Becker, the officer in charge) who produced several vehicles from French captures:
Pak 40 on UNIC Half track
mulitple 81mm mortar launcher on UNIC Half track
fH13 15cm howitzer on Lorraine
Pak 40 on Lorraine
leFH18 10.5cm Howitzer n Lorraine
Pak 40 on H38/H39
leFH 18 10.5cm Howizter on H38/H39
4.7cm Czech Pak on Renault R-35
10.5cm leFH18 on Somua S-35
And a host of other oddballs. These were usually sent to actual armor units and not to the police units. The 21 PD, stationed near Normandy rec’d many of these.
I can’t see how their usage would have any bearing on whether or not units fighting the French resistance may have had a Pz II or not.
Well, Im definately greatful for all the help, I went ahead and ordered a panzerkampfwagen II last night, and if I do find conclusive evidence ill just use it for something else, since I love the machine. Also,if I do use it I will make sure it looks fairly junky and worn out with some small field modifications and battle damage, as it would be very old and discontinued by 1944. Also I think that by using the obsolete and discontinued AFV it will show a great quote somenoe pointed out on one of my posts: In war you use what you have, not what you need.