I’m building the 1/48 Tamiya A-1H Syyraider and have a question regarding the USN paint schemes during the Vietnam conflict. Is there a difference in colors between the lower sections of the plane that call for insignia white and the interior area of the wheelwells that call for flat white? Apparently white is not white? Thanks for any help.
hello,
I used Tamiya insignia white as the base white for my MiG-29 /forums/t/134628.aspx i think its a shade or so darker than the standard flat white, but IMO think the inginia looks much better, its better on the eyes and gives the white a deeper feel. the flat white is just a standard boring white lol. depends how you see it i guess lol.
that’s just an error in the color call outs,the inside of wheel wells were to be Insignia White also, same as the underwing and control surfaces
hope this helps
Rex
As already posted, it’s all the same white; very bright. The wheel wells were actually a glossy white, not flat, and I believe all whites (and gray) used on the gull gray/white schemes were glossy or at least semi-glossy. It wasn’t until the white was removed, and overall gull gray, that eventually migrated to the current TPS colors, began to be flat.
I remember having a gray/white A-7 that was definitely glossy. We liked it and ensured it was the CO’s bird as it was an easier scheme to keep neat. Just wipe with a JP soaked rag (probably not healthy…)
Tim
actually, the Lt Gull Gray was flat from 1955 to 1972 or so,I’d have to look up the date in the seventies when the change was mandated, but roughly it was
Flat Light Gull Gray over Insignia White (a gloss color) from the implementation of the scheme in 1955, until the early seventies, then both were Gloss, then the White was taken away from External surfaces, remaining on gear bays, etc,then TPS of one of the many kinds, still with White bays
I’ve never seen a model done “completely to spec” in the 1955 to 1972 time frame,Flat Gray, Gloss White (bottom and top) with Gloss trim colors, the trim colors all started with a 1xxxx, with Flat Black Modex, tail code, and sevice/model designators
I want to do one one day,but figuring out how to mask and “Flat or Gloss” all those areas would be a pain,not to mention showing the decal films in scale for the places that weren’t painted and had decals on the real thing
for now, I just do everything all up,and give it a Semi Gloss final coat to reduce the glare on a model
Rex
The first number in the Federal Standard Color numbers is the designator of the sheen, e.g. gloss, semi-gloss, flat, etc. 1 indicates a gloss sheen and 3 indicates a flat finish (or is it “matt”). I do not have my FS color charts handy at the moment. Anyway, the FS insignia white can be gloss, semi-gloss, matt, flatt, etc. and the number would be the same except fot the first number. The rest of the numbers have to do with the “hue” of the color. If I remember correctly FSM had an article about the Federal Standard Color system a few years back. I think the U.S. government still sells the FS color charts (“fans”) and they are well worth the small price.
the FS system has been “simplified by modelers” over the years,but, the spec was Gloss numbers for the “Insignia” colors, and the assigned trim colors,somehow, it’s been morphed into there being an animal called “Flat Insignia Red” for example,and that color didn’t exist in NavAir usage in real life
no one seems to know that the three x7038 are actually different colors of Black,the Munsell numbers used to design the colors “back in the day” are different,FS is a list of paint colors, like addresses on 3 streets, not mixing ratios like Home Depot paint chips, the order they are in is the order of “dark to light”, you can find many instances of a warm color sandwiched in between to cool colors,the grays show it the best
the color change thing happens with the x6440, x7038, and especially the three x6081 Grays, one of them has a green tint to it, the other 2 have blue
hah,but in the long run,the paints haven’t been mixed for modeling according to Munsell, I guess,the only one I’ve seen is the x6081’s,and then someone will grab the wrong a 1, 2, or 3 and complain that “it’s greenish on my seaplane,Brand XYZ got it wroing”,when the paint was right, just on the wrong plane
Rex
Then there’s the weird jump from WW 2 USN colors where Light Gray as used in the early war two tone scheme is actually what we call Light Gull Gray when referring to the 55-72 USN scheme.
There’s a Light Gray paint that’s too light for the WW 2 scheme but has tripped up lots of folks that used it instead of Light Gull Gray which is correct for underside of aircraft until the '43 tri-color paint.
Then there’s a point in the 70ish period where the name Light Gull Gray was dropped and it became just Light Gray which added to the confusion.
TarnShip, in you work on the squadrons, have you noticed some F-14s in VF-1 that appear to have been painted in an overall Light Gray and not Light Gull Gray? There’s a few shots in Heater Heatley’s book The Cutting Edge of VF-1 birds that look very, very light. They’ve got low vis grays for the Wolfpack markings, etc., but look too light for LGG. It could be the book’s photo reproduction and printing, but I don’t think so. However, I’ve not been able to find anything that mentions VF-1 using that color.
It’s puzzled me from time to time.
Mike, I’ll have to give that a look,I did it the popular way and used the first VF-1 cruise for my -1 slot in the collection,I did that because I figured that scheme was the one most people would instantly recognize when they saw it on the shelf,thought it would be enough “trouble” explaining VSF-1 and -3 to them, lol
there was and probably still is,2 different “Insignia Whites”,one is the “spec” color called out in all the painting diagrams we’ve ever seen for our models,the other is the “actual” color of white used during those years,the “use of tinting mediums was not authorised” to change the White from the can to the color on the card,that’s why a lot of books will have both chips in them,one is “spec”, the other is “actually seen”,two different FS numbers
“possible color confusion” is the reason for this line in the specs “the use of color names is not authorized in official communications”,some have read that to mean that the color names were not official,it didn’t mean that,it meant “use the number, Doofus, not the name when you write to us”,and in a lot of official communications, the name and number were used by the Fleet,just like ordering parts for a Jeep (yet another time that “popular modern use” has changed a name from what it was during WW2),you didn’t type out “send me 1 tire for a Jeep”,it was more like “1 each, tire, round, rubber, 9857905783957”, lol
I always try to quote 1/1 names and numbers,let each modeler find his own favorite mix from there,no way to know what “scale effect” or “toned down to eliminate toy-like appearance” likes or dislikes a person has
Rex
In the instruction sheet of my Tamiya 1/48 Skyraider, the underwing surfaces as well as the wheel wells are insignia white. Just curious were they still using flat whites by then?
You know what would make life a lot easier…? If they switched tousing standard Hex color codes with a 4th set added to indicate gloss ratio. It would be universal and easier to understand for some folks.
The standard hex code for colors divide each of the primary colors into a 2 digit hexadecimal pair. Hex numbers go from 1 to 9 then A through F for the numbers 10-16. The higher the value, the higher the intensity (brightness) of each color.
Here’s an example.
00:00:00 would be black. The zeroes indicate 0 value for each of the primary colors.
44:44:00 would be a sort of dark purple color
44:44:FF would be a medium to light blue
F5:F5:F5 would be a light gray color and so on.
Add in an extra hex set for the glossiness and it would be easy and universal. Then there would be no more need for all of these multiple international standards. It would also eliminate the need to find equivalent s from different companies using a ton of charts.
Just an idea.
Rich
Rich, there was a chart up at one time that gave RGB and Hex numbers,I have no idea why it’s down now, though,it looked almost like someone had taken the time to actually analyze the colors with a proper Munsell book, too,it showed a diff RGB or HexDec set for each sheen of the FS,and when you put them next to each other,you could see the differences
it was up until just about a year ago,and then one day I clicked on it, and it was gone
it was handy as heck, too,just look up an RGB, slap it into your PC paint Palette,and draw away,too bad
Rex
Too bad. That would have come in handy when I’m working on textures for 3D models.
Rex,
Here’s the FS numbers for the confusing Light Gray colors:
Good ol’ Light Gull Gray is of course, X6640.
The Light Gray is X6495.
The VF-1 birds I mentioned sure look like they were in 6495.
Constructor,
The Insignia White of the underside of the gray and white USN birds is always glossy regardless of the gray’s finish.
thanks Mike, I “see” those two colors now
to your eye, then,those jets don’t have that nasty “sickly green” tint to them, then?,I paint 36440 only because it’s “right”,but I really didn’t like the color in the '70’s in real life, or now, as a modeler,not a very attractive color,495 might have been used back then by VF-1,if someone followed the name instead of the FS,or “made a choice” since the names were the same
if VF-2 was still a “sister squadron” to VF-1 on those cruises,it would be interesting to see them together,might confirm that for you,or any shot with the A-7 or A-6 around
by the way, just for grins,isn’t it veryyyyyy tempting to paint a cheap model with Gull Gray instead of Light Gull Gray, since everyone shortens the name in posts,I know I’ve wanted to many times, and 473 is a “prettier shade” anyway, lol,just paint the thing, do everything “right”,and say “but when I asked on the forums Mr Smuckatelly told me to use Gull Gray, so that’s what I did”,lol
Rex,
I don’t mind the LGG color that much, but I’ve never quite got how it was any good at camoflage.
I suppose it helped in distant haze.
Of course the E-2s still use it and I did some research on why it was still used. The answer I got was that it was very easy to clean on the boat.
Old Smuckatelly gets around.