Thanks for the info, Chris
So basicly there is no such a thing as standard common design of the box? They where all different in size and capacity? Do you have any photos of “custom made” ammo boxes?
Andy
Chris,
I thought the eighty five round ammo box was originally supposed to be located in the hell hole. Is there actually enough room for the 302 round drum in there?
Ray
Following the Vietnam War, the Army standardized a drum-type bin for Huey gunships using the M-5 subsystem. It was located in the cabin area center(for the most part) against the aft bulkhead. Anyone ever working on a Huey would have hated having it placed in the hell-hole, it would hace been a pain to service including loading and un-loading ammo. Much less having to preform any other maintenance in the hell-hole
Granddad hit the nail on the head, any drum hanging in the hole would be a B***H to work with.
While I have no pictures in my possession, my recollection is that the 20mm storage box adapted nicely and was easily obtained. I’ve also seen custom made sheetmetal bins, wooden boxes of various sizes and cut down cylindrical drums in use. From a flyer’s point of view, the 40mm ammo could be altered in quantity to reduce gross weight depending on other armament or fuel needs. A UH-1C heavy Hog with full rocket load could still carry the thumper although it would have very little ammo, see the point?
Chief Snake
Chris,
Would a Heavy Hog UH-1C be more likely to carry rockets with 10lb warheads in conjunction with the 40 mm as apposed to 17 lb warheads? That would save about 300 lbs for 40mm ammo.
Ray
The rocket type would be set when the aircraft was armed for ready status or armed for a known particular mission. I wasn’t a gun bunnie so I’m not absolutely certain if mixed rocket types could be loaded in the larger pods on a Hog. I think so, because the AH-1G could have mixed loads when the rockets were paired properly. As long as the pilot knew which tubes in the launcher held the matching pairs, he could select and fire them. This came with mission planning and co-ordination with the armorers. 10lb rockets and 17lb rockets were for different purposes, one being HE the anti- personnel. Gross weight is the major consideration and selecting various weapons types isn’t a real problem as long as the weight is charted against the desired amount of each weapon added. So, you may not fill all the tubes on a pod and you may not have the max 40mm on board but you could have a spread of capability that would allow you flexibility when facing unknown or as yet developed contact.
Chief Snake
Thanks for the info Chief Snake. So you are saying that the order of firing for the tubes could be changed? I have seen diagrams that show the firing order, and I always thought that was fixed. By the way, my dad was a GUN BUNNIE. At least I assume that you are referring to the armorer/doorgunner when you use that term. I guess I should ask him about rockets as well.
Ray
yup, gun bunnie is a gunship crewman. Just like gun dogs are the armorers. The Pods are zoned and can be fired by station select pairs. Ordered firing is the norm, however that can be manually altered on the weapons system control panel. So as long as the zones had matched pairs in them the rockets could be mix loaded into the pods. I have been reminded that there is also an illumination rocket that could be pod loaded.
Chief Snake
Chief Snake,
My dad had never heard of GUN DOGS or GUN BUNNIES. I guess it wasn’t a universal term. He also said that while he had no reason to discount mixed rocket loads as a possibility, at least in the 190th during 68-69 he has no recollection of loading mixed ordinanace. Also, dad mentioned an instrument on the control panel called an intervalometer that controlled the order and number of rockets fired. Supposedly they were different for M-158 vs M-200 pods. Dad said they were always going bad and he had to replace a gagillion of them while in country. Can you shed some light on exactly what this instrument is, what it looks like, and how it worked? Since dad was just an old country boy, he doesn’t know any of the particulars. Was there a different instrument in AH-1’s? Thanks for taking time to help me get this stuff straight.
Ray
EDIT: I found this diagram that is supposed to be the intervalometer. If I interpret this correctly, the left hand switch selects weapon system (up would be 40mm, down would be minigins or quad 60’s and middle would be left and right rockets). I assume that this particular intervalometer is for a M-157 or M-158 armed ship since there are only 7 pairs of rockets labeled on the rocket pair selector. Also, since no ships carried both 40mm and minis/quad 60’s, this same intervalomter would work for a frog ship or a M-21 or M-16 armed gunship. Am I interpreting this correctly?
You have the basics down. The 157/158 is a 7 shot pod, the 159/200 a 19 shot pod. The inter panel you have illustrated is the 157/158 rocket pod application that typically was called the M-21 with M-5 capability. It also applied to the M-16 system with M-5 capability so yes, it seems to be a “multi use” unit. I’ve also seen that unit pictured in the very earliest AH-1G cockpits- which quickly became more sophisticated allowing front/rear control and per weapon control in addition to the rocket pod controls. More than one panel can be mounted in an aircraft like the Cobra. The selectors can be different per system loaded on the aircraft. Judging by the illustration, mixed loads in the 7 shot would have to have been strictly by pair per station and as long as the pilot knew that combination he could carry a mixed load. With the 7 shot pods being of short duration as opposed to the 19 and 24 shot pods it’s reasonable that your father didn’t see mixed use loading. I have a restored AH-1 panel in my office, it has the intervalometer for the 19 shot pods in it and has pair select and salvo shot. It also has the 20mm M-35 mod on it. I have looked at the intervalometer for the M-3 (24 shot) and it has pair select and salvo select on it also. So there are obviously many different intervalometer combinations. As long as the intervalometer for each system was the most sophisticated possible then mixed loads were possible. Sounds tricky for Vietnam era aircraft, but the more modern systems are designed with that capability. Judging from your fathers’ experience it seems it wasn’t a common thing to do, but not undoable.
Chief Snake
Chief Snake,
Thanks for the info. Dad worked an all their gunships, both Hogs and M-21 ships, so maybe his unit didn’t use mixed rocket loads. The M-3 wasn’t in service much, if at all, by the time he came in country (1968) so he never worked on one of those. The 145 CAB was, of course, the first unit to field the AH-1 in Vietnam, but my father’s unit never flew them, to my knowledge, so he was strictly a Huey gun dog. Any chance of a pic of that restored AH-1 panel? I’m sure it would be of interest to others as well. Thanks again for the info.
Ray
I don’t remember how to post photos here, I’ll see if I can remember. There is a picture of it posted on the VHPA Museum site under the B Troop 3/17 Cav section. The M-3 system was basically an Aerial Rocket Artillery system, their dedication being largely battery support for ground troops. Even then, they were prone to reduce the rows in the rig to allow for using the M-5 and for mounting the “Maxwell” rig. That was an adapter that let the M-22 rocket system be employed in addition to FFARs. The SS-11 missile was quite suitable for bunker busting.
Chief Snake
Chief Snake,
here’s the panel pic:
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Also, I thought it might be a good idea to post pics of the other weapons systems we have been talking about. They are all pictured in various places, but its just electrons so here they are together:
M-3, 24 rd Rocket battery:
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Maxwell system with SS-11 rocket and 18 shot M-3:
M-157, 7-shot rocket pod on M-21 armament subsystem:
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Note that the center rocket is missing. This is one of my dad’s 190th ships.
M-158, 7 shot rocket pod with replaceable tubes, once again on M-21 armament subsystem:
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If anyone has ever wondered why you would use replaceable tubes, I think this answers that question!
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M-200, 19 shot rocket pod with a good view of M-156 universal mount:
I post pics by putting them on Photobucket and then copying and pasting the HTML tag using the images button in the message window. There are probably other ways as well.
Ray
Yikes! I’ll bet those guys that had the hung rocket got a little excited. They are just training rockets but having the live motor burning among other live motors is very dicey. The intervalometer/ armament panel in the picture of my panel was reproduction. I’ve since replaced it with an authentic one. This panel came from a G that underwent at least MOD S because it had the fire light and NVG covers added to it. If it went on to AH-1F upgrade that’s why the panel was removed, they were different. Otherwise, the aircraft was probably scrapped and somehow the panel made it into the surplus sales market.
Chief Snake
Way back up there we were talking about the M-5 system and it’s ammo boxes. I think this pic represents the ORIGINAL Army configuration for the M-5 with the itty bitty ammo box.
Ray
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i was wondering rotorwash, did you have any more photo’s of the TK-2 system. funny you should mention scratch building a system for a marine huey. i am in a USMC group build in ARC and the revells gun mount are all wrong for the UH-1E. thanks for the great photo’s thus far i love this thread.
SSgt Macal,
Thanks for your service, sir. Here are several pics of Uh-1E’s with the TK-2 system on them from the Huey Gunships Walkaraound Squadron book by Wayne Mutza. I am the son of an Army doorgunner, so I don’t have a lot of Marine Huey pics. I hope these help.
Ray
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
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As I mentioned way back there somewhere, the first batch of UH-1E’s were built after the Bravo model (pics 1-4), while the later ones were built after the Charlie model(pics 5-6). In the first four pics you can clearly see the 204 rotorhead and nose mounted pitot. However, all four also have the housing for the roof mounted rescue hoist, a hallmark of the UH-1E, UH-1L, TH-1L and HH-1K. Also, the last two pics (5 & 6) show a Echo with the TAT 101 turret in place, but the guns are covered. In addition to the inboard 60’s, several pics show the white rocket pods borrowed from the Air Force and the Pic 2 shows the XM-18 minigun pod as well. I hope these pics help.
Ray
it does help. thanks