Ah come on now Bill,
You should know by now I can type for hours and not say anything!!! 
Jeff
I see your point. If someone builds, say a F11F-1 Tiger and comments that in order to correct the vast problems, you will have to buy this and this update for it, which will more than double the cost. That gives me the option as to if I consider it worth the additional cost. It is the only game in town at this time, but I just might take a rain check on it and hope someone releases a better kit later. Fiction? No, it is something I have done for many years. I would love to have that aircraft in my collection but from what I have heard, it isn’t worth it to me. You on the other hand may say, “I have to have that kit for my collection along with the updated AM parts”. The result is only one bought the kit verses two, and two satisified model builders.
Let me go see if Jeff has posted again. Isn’t he suppose to be at work?[:O]
Houston we have CONTACT!
Berny I knew you would understand me! [;)]
It’s a similar problem to a $12 Revellogram kit versus a $36 Tamiya kit. Do I spend three times as much for what I know is an excellent kit, or work three times (or more) harder on a marginal kit? Having built both I’ll almost always opt for the better kit. My enjoyment comes from the build not the money savings.
Uhhh, Berny, making sure you fellows play nice is part of my job!!
Commentary like this is helpful to everyone as long as it remains calm and productive. Usually, threads like these can turn into nasty flame wars that benefit no one. Thankfully, this hasn’t been the case with this one.
This thread has provided a lot of useful insight and dialog. Hopefully, we can find ways to put it to good use!
Jeff
I am the same way. I would rather spend the $36 and get a kit that gives me pleasure over a $12 kit that gives me a headach. I am lucky that I can afford to go out and spend $100-$200 on a kit. I don’t always do it, because at times, I will say to my self, “Self. Do you really want to spend that much on a kit you may not even build?” If the kit really gets my interest, I will say “Yes.”
But when I do, I don’t like the idea of spending anothet $100 for AM parts to get a half way good looking model out of it. A good quality expensive kit should have all items included to produce a showcase model. Just my openion.
Bill,
I think we all got it, it’s just some were not into the cost/time thing being put on every build.
Seemed funny to me how a guy may spend an hour and two pages explaining every detail on a model for a contest, but just wants readers of a magazine to think they just threw it together one rainy day. Or not.
Me? I’m saving my pennies for a 1/350 resin kit of the USS Indianapolis, so Trumpeter can announce they will issue an injection kit for less than $50 shortly after.
Don
Don, I know the feeling. I wanted to build a 1/32 scale hardwing F-4E, the one I was Crew Chief on at Eglin AFB during Linebacker I. There were no hardwing F-4E’s around, so I bought the Revell RF-4C and F-4E softwing. I bashed the two together and made my own hardwing F-4E and what happens after I did major surgery on it? [censored]Tamiya releases a hardwing F-4E. Six months later a friend gives me, at no cost the Tamiya F-4E, because his grandson did not want to build it.
I have a similar experience, although it didn’t happen to me.
A good friend of mine (yes, I still have a few left) started working on a scratchbuilt 1/35 Sturmtiger about one year before the Tamiya kit was released. He worked on it diligently, and ended up with a great looking model.
The first show he brought it to was the first show on the East coast where every vendor had at least a case of the latest “must have” kit, the Tamiya Sturmtiger.
How’s that for luck?
Jeff
Jeff
About twelve years ago I took the Monogram 1/48 A-6E kit and converted it to a KA-6D. I entered it in a model show in Pensacola. At the show was a vendor who had the just released KA-6 conversion kit in resin. He asked how I was able to get the conversion kit as it was just released. When I told him it was a scratchbuild job, we compared the two. The resin release was on equal with my work except for the basket. The AM had a better looking basket.
My KA never made it to the judging as some kid was later found playing with it on the floor as his younger brother had a Tiger I doing the same. There it was, minus landing gear, gear doors, drop tanks and pitot boom with the Tiger also misssing parts. Their father could not understand why we were so upset, as they were only toys and young boys like to play with toys.
I had something similar happen to both Jeff and Berny…I went to a show and put a 1/48 Mossie on the table with Aeromaster decals. Everyone knew Tamiya had just the week before released their Mossie but none of the local shops had it yet and only 2 or 3 vendors at the show and theirs had arrived the day before from distributors. I kept getting asked how I got a Tamiya Mossie and how did I build it overnight? Until I got tired of answering nobody would believe me so finally I simply took to picking it up and showing them the empty wheel wells…then they believed it was the ancient Monogram kit…
What a interesting discussion this is. I won’t repeat the opinions already made, but would add the following. When AM parts are used as a replacement for kit parts, I would dearly love to see a picture comparison between the kit parts and the AM part. Then I can judge for myself the relative worth of the AM part in terms of cost. As many of you have mentioned, that relative worth will be very subjective.
Man, I think I’m just the opposite! My last kit was a 1/72 scale Monogram F-4J (a pretty good kit, by the way, but it’s no Hasegawa), and my current kit is a 1/74 scale Glencoe MB-2 – a MAJOR headache.
Still, I haven’t had much more fun, or gotten such a sense of accomplishment from a kit, as I have with the MB-2.
Total cost is an interesting concept. For this build, I’ve bought:
- The kit, which was $5 at a show (retail is around $12).
- Two Aeroclub white metal Lewis guns: appox. $5
- Paint: $10
- Needle nose tweezers (a must for rigging a biplane): approx. $4
- Invisible thread: $2
- Wedding tulle (a fine mesh fabric): $3
- Sanding sticks: $7.50
- Orion Pilots of WWI figure set (24 figures, of which I’ve used three): $11
- Testors Decal Making System: $5
- Various strip and rod styrene packs: $8
- Some Woodlands Scenics stuff, and a picture frame: $12.
Total: $72.50
I’m not including the air brush I use, because that was a Christmas gift a few years ago; I did not buy it for this build.
In fact, if I don’t count the tools or the items that I will use for other projects, I’m down to the cost of the kit, the paint that I’ve used completely, and the Aeroclub guns.
That’s almost out of the box. [:)]
Regards,
Very interesting discussion. I don’t have much to add except my own opinions. I guess, like most things in life, we can rant, but ultimately it’s a case of “to each his own”.
Personally I do not like the accepted forms of self proclaimed modelling academia (to steal a great phrase I saw earlier on the forum) of mostly accepting superdetailed and hyper-accurate models as the standard to judge by. I’m not the only one out there that just can’t afford this stuff. I saw some tallies posted on this board, and I gotta say that it’s fairly unrealistic. For example, that StuG project, were I actually able to find most of those parts, they’d cost me twice as much. Most I’d have to order online. Not that many shops are stocked with good AM parts, and those that are around me cost literally as much as a kit. Most of the AM stuff I found was on the net, and even then, when I tally it all up, the AM always costs as much as the kit. As a result, I’ve tried to stay away from it, and attempt to go back to modelling basics, that being of scratch-building some simple improvements out of readily available materials. Having said that, pretty much everyone I’ve shown my models to just muses at the time and patience it takes to make one of these things, straight out of box, nevermind even minor detailing. IMO, it IS a bad trend. I cannot see this hobby really attracting many young hobbyists. I know of this from personal experience. As much as people that go to shows and whatnot would like to disagree, they simply cannot fight facts, and that being that the average modeler is mid to late in their years, male, with a family and a middle-class stable life. FUrther, the geekiness factor of construction and superdetailing again is a factor that does not really appeal to younger crowds. It’s kind of a catch 22. To attract more hobbyists, kits have to become simpler and more readily accessible, but it is those same restrictions that will make kits less detailed, thus making them less appealing to the established hobbyists…
Excellent point…and this leads back to one of my previous points. Posting a cost for the build is relative. My StuG build has a lot of AM extras, this much is true. However, the kit could also be built up into a nearly identical model with no (or very minimal) AM products. With the hatches closed and the kit’s gun used, perhaps only a few PE tool holders would be needed to make the models look substantially the same. The ONLY reason I used these AM products was because I got them all in a group purchase. If I had purchased the kit seperately, I would not have purchased the additional AM products…the kit really didn’t need them to look good.
So what does my $50.00 price tag tell a potential reader other than my talent for finding a good deal? Does it tell them how much it would cost them to build the same model with the same AM items? No, it doesn’t, because they are not likely to find the same “package deal” I found. Would the listing of MSRP’s for all the items do any better? Probably, but as the modeler, I don’t think it’s my obligation to track down the current prices for these AM products any more than it’s my job to find the “best price” for the kit itself. That’s a job for whomever wants to buy it. Does the listing of cost tell anyone what AM is needed to correct kit errors? No, it doesn’t, because the use of AM was strictly a “choice” on my part and not necessary to the build. Besides, I don’t have a clue what parts of the kit are accurate and what parts have errors. All I know is that I prefer AM components in some areas because they look better to my eye.
IMHO modelers in general (including myself) should concentrate the majority of their efforts on “finish” rather than detail sets. A well thought out, superior finish can easily turn a OOTB build into an outstanding model that anyone would be proud to call their own. By the same token, an average or rushed finish on any build will still be substandard, no matter how many AM tidbits the modeler has added to the price tag. Granted, an outstanding finish on a super-detailed build is the “ultimate goal” in the minds of many modelers, but it’s not absolutely necessary for someone to construct extremely nice models that showcase their talents.
In our local area, we are actually seeing a slightly higher influx of new, younger modelers into the hobby than in the past 5 or 10 years. I’m talking about the 15 to 20 year old crowd. In some cases, these young modelers are the builders who are embracing AM detail sets far more than some of our well-established, older builders. The older modelers look at an AM set and say, “I can make the same thing, or something darn close, for 1/3 the price or less.” The younger modelers don’t have those skills yet, but they have WAY more money than I ever did at that age and eagerly buy up the detail sets. This obviously isn’t true everywhere, but I find it interesting nonetheless that this is happening in my area.
I personally marvel at some of the OOTB builds I’ve seen since returning to the hobby and strive to improve my basic modeling skills to meet those standards. Like my younger counterparts, I have yet to develop the scratch-building skills necessary to completely detail an AFV interior from stock styrene and wire…perhaps some day. Until then, if I want to “open the hatches”, I’ll have to rely on AM products to fill the void. Others may choose to simply keep the hatches closed. That doesn’t make them any less of a modeler, just a different modeler, and since we are all individuals, that’s a very good thing indeed!
Enjoy your modeling…
Why do I have the feeling that is what might happen to me. I’m doing a SCB27 conversion and I’m sure that DML will come out with their SCB125 the day I put the last touch on mine.
Then again, that would be great, because I don’t care, I am doing what I love to do., converting WW2 Essex class carriers from kits. How much did it cost me? Again, I won’t know or care, for I have $300 saved in my piggy bank and when its gone, its gone and if I have to comb the dumpsters for materials, then that will only add to the fun and challenge. How much time have I spent on it? Again, I won’t have a clue or care, for in my opinion, I can never totally finish a model.
This subject of time and costs in regards to our models is crazy. Really, it reminds me of work, for as project manager, I’m required to cost every little part to the penny and estimate and track every hour spent on the project.
I really do not want to do that with my hobby, because then my hobby will become work.
Good point Scott, I never really considered that when I posting my reasoning.
I’ve had the chance to give it some thought (remarkable, huh?) and as much as I’d like to provide a line-by-line cost analysis of a project build, truth is, I don’t know if I honestly could, or if I did, what would the reader gain from it?
What I mean is…my spares box gets a workout with every project, I do a lot of scratchbuilding, and I turn and mill and cast many of my own parts. Are those options available, or even useful, to the average modeler?
I honestly can’t think of the last time I bought a kit and a detail set, and just built it. If that were my norm, it’d be easy to say I spent $30 on the kit and $18 on the detail set. I don’t know how many of us actually build this way, but I’d tend to think most of us are somewhere in between those two levels.
Of course, it could get ridiculous too…
I spent $30 on the kit, $50 on resin bits, $25 on PE, $40 on Frui tracks, $7 on decals, then I spent $600 on a lathe to turn the barrel and $300 on a compressor to run the $400 Iwata airbrush I bought for this project.
I think that most “super” models that we see start out with a basic kit (obviously, scratchbuilt models are the exception). I think the average reader has the ability to read a story, understand that the builder started with a $30 tank kit, and added lots and lots of details to it. If he (the reader) is at the level of the builder, then chances are he already knows how much it’ll cost to get that level of detail.
Most readers will look at a model and say, “I’m not going to add ________ because…” It could be money, skills, experience, or desire (or lack thereof). Usually, readers will say something to the effect that “I’m not going to scratchbuild a replacement mantlet just because the bolt pattern is wrong, but I am going to add a replacement barrel like he did.”
Eventually, with each project, the reader’s skills and confidence will increase, and eventually (it could take years) he finds himself adding tons of details to a project. That’s the typical progression of a modeler. Eventually, we find that we’re not newbies anymore. Most of the time, we don’t know when we stopped being newbies and started becoming “experienced” modelers.
I guess it boil down to common sense, too. If you read a story and the builder says he added this resin set and that PE set, it’s pretty likely that it’s going to be expensive if you try to replicate the project.
Maybe I’m an exception to the rule…but I can’t tell you where my kits came from, how long I’ve had most of them, or how much they cost me. I’m constantly swapping and trading kits and buying collections. Same with my detail parts, I have no clue what I have. Sometimes, I’ll open a box and find it jam-packed with aftermarket details, and I have no clue where they came from, or where I got them! It’s hard to quantify something like that.
I’m babbling again…
Jeff
Jeff,
You’re not babbling again; you make perfect sense.
I’ve been reading FSM since I was in high school in '89. In fact, the article that prompted me to buy the magazine was by Bob Steinbrunn on backdating and superdetailing a Monogram F-80C to a P-80. That article blew me away!
I’d read articles like that and say to myself, “Well, I can’t make an instrument panel from scratch, but I can make a seat cushion from tissues soaked in glue, and make my own seatbelts from masking tape.”
Like a lot of people, I didn’t build models after high school until I started again a few years ago. Now I’m in my early 30s, I have a lot more money to spend on the hobby (especially for tools) than I did before, and my skills are much better than they were seventeen years ago.
However, I still look at a lot of the builds, and think, “well, I can’t cast replacement landing gear struts from resin (yet), but I can certainly make my own decals.”
Truth be told, the title of the magazine is “Fine Scale Modeling” not “Regular Scale Modeling.” I expect to see a fair amount of high-level work that involves scratch building and after market parts.
At the same time, Matt Usher’s recent articles (on the Corvette and building a diorama) where he shows how to go just a step or two beyond a straight OOB build are fantastic. I hope FSM keeps the varied content of different genres and build levels coming.
Regards,
Quite the can of worms being opened here!
Okay, I see the difficulty of stating exact prices, perhaps it’s my naivete with the hobby that makes me want to know how much stuff costs? Perhaps it’s my job as Estimating Manager for a large printshop? I certainly don’t want my hobby to end up the same as my job, for then I will truly be insane, instead of just being suspected of it.
I just can’t get over the feeling that FSM is not really a magazine for experienced modelers, who already know most of what they see each month, or even have those kits in the collection (built or stashed), but is a way for newbie modelers to learn and grow our skills. I look to FSM to educate me on the minutae of the build, and with that in mind, can’t help but associate costs to it. I am most definitely NOT independently wealthy, and I’m betting most of us aren’t, so cost is a factor to a certain segment of the readership.
An excellent point! Cost is not only a factor, I think it’s one of the most important aspects of everything we do in life. I personally live on a fixed income of under $18K per year, so how much something is going to cost is extremely vital. In addition to the thousands of hours I’ve spent researching kit reviews and availability, I’ve spent hundreds of hours over the past three years researching costs. However, the cost alone is seldom the sole decided factor in whether I tackle a particular project…it can be, but not very often.
The question that appears to need resolution is, “Where is the best place for a modeler to get cost information?” and should the answer be, “FSM”. I would personally never rely on a modeling magazine or non-retail web site to provide a completely accurate representation of costs for a kit, product, or project. While they are usually able to provide a “ballpark” figure, my experience has been that I will find cost variations of 30% or more (up or down) from any cost quoted by a non-retail source. The absolute best place to get a cost on anything is from the person, store, or web site where you will buy the item.
My biggest complaint about FSM - aside from the quantity of advertising space - has always been that most build articles are extremely “watered down” and seldom provide the level of detailed information I would prefer. Whether builds are OOTB or super-detailed, nearly all FSM articles appear to written in way that is solely determined by publication space and NOT by the level of information the article should be passing on to the reader. I completely agree a listing of products used on a particluar build (kit#, AM products and #'s, scratch built or spares used, etc.) is valuable information to many modelers. However, one-time cost estimates may not be completely accurate and may only eat up already limited publication space.
This is an extremely interesting discussion and some outstanding points have been raised!!!
Robert,
I consider you a very experienced modeler, so yeah, you shouldn’t be relying on FSM for costs. As you said, you have spent hundreds of hours researching costs. A newbie to the modeling addiction doesn’t have that experience, or the knowledge, and will look to FSM for that information. FSM knows that hence the msrp cost in New Products and Workbench Reviews.
I’m becoming more experienced about the kit prices but am still a n00b when it comes to AM. Searching online doesn’t help as many sites don’t show images of the AM and I don’t have specifics to compare one kind to the other.
As indicated earlier, I work for a printer and have 20 years of costing print production, not to mention co-ordination of many magazines, books and catalogues. The addition of a price list would be a minor problem to overcome.