maybe if they made the xbox / playstations as a kit [:o)]
Of course it would be like a quote. Frankly I don’t see your problem with the magazine quoting MSRP. They already do in the New Products section and also in Workbench Reviews. Yes, prices do change regionally, and from country to country. I long ago learned to quickly convert US to CDN for my purposes. Having an idea on the cost associated with AM parts would benefit the potential buyer by allowing them to know ahead of time what the full cost would be. Some of the people who read FSM have an hour or more drive to the LHS or don’t have a computer to search online. What a surprise for them to discover that the kit is $130 and the AM another $50! I fell in love with the Fw 200C-4 Condor kit in Workbench Reviews in the Nov 05 issue, but at $129.95 MSRP that will remain a long distance love affair for quite some time! I’m glad the price was shown before I drove a two hour round trip to the LHS. (actually it would have taken me less then 20 minutes, but I’m making a point here! Work with me, people!)
Time is a completely different thing. Joe Modeler may take 400 hours to complete a kit because he scratchbuilds details none of us will see, and Frank Kitt may do the same model in 40 because he builds OOB. Joe might get paid $10/hr at his night job as a janitor while Frank pulls down $1000/hr as a top level criminal lawyer. What is their respective time worth building the kit? But I like to read how much time it took as well, by all means throw that into the list…
I guess what I mean is the prices are already available, and some kits maybe on sale. A few clicks on the mouse and a little math-presto, total build cost. The Magazine may quote MSRP, and the model retailers who buy advertising may have the kit discounted. Some people would read the article, see the MSRP figures and decide " I can’t afford that". This could potentially hurt sales.
steve
If all I had to do is smurf around the interweb researching prices, I wouldn’t need the magazine either! Lots of other magazines that do review do it. Road & Track comes to mind. I’m not put off buy the newest Bugatti Veyron 16.4 with it’s $1.2 million price tag.
Well, actually I AM put off by it. Do you think maybe Bugatti should sue R&T? [:o)]
The people who would be put off by a price tag would be put off by any price tag everywhere. The manufacturer knows this, however their target audience probably doesn’t care, so the sales go on. I think the TC0B is a good idea, you don’t. Ain’t freedom of expression fun? [:D]
| Hi guys, first of all let me say I am enjoying this discussion, there are several points of view all of which are very interesting. First of all could I make a comment on the TCOB from here “down under”, as its is mostly irrelevant to me as the costs listed in FSM are in US$ therefore don’t really apply to us here in Australia. Could I also comment on the “young people being scared away from the hobby” personally I think this has more to do with the way kids are brought up today and the way society conditions them than the cost of models. For instance in Aust. I can buy the latest Dragon 1:35 tank kit (which i personally love because it has a lot of the goodies already in the box, even tho it ain’t cheap) for around $60 AUS and the latest playstation games are about $90 and some kids have dozens of the things. Kids would rather spend hours and hours on the games console than take hours and hours to make a model, although I do generalise somewhat, but generally speaking kids want instant fun not hours of work to make something. From what I observe a lot of parents spend a small fortune on their kids, so I dont think just the cost of models is keeping young people away. just my[2c] Have a good one!! |
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True, quoting US dollars isn’t pertinent to Australians, any more than it is to Canadians. But I know what the currency rate is for Canadian, and you probably know how much it is for Australian dollars, and we both can do the math. Mind you, they sell most of the magazines within the US, so we’ll just have to deal with that!
I agree that the “average” kid will spend more money on Xbox or PS2 games than on kits and they have a heck of a lot more disposable “income” than I ever had as a kid! Instant gratification is IN!
Instant gratification? Well, I want Jeff Herne’s skill and quality, I want it to cost $25 total and I want it now! (FOFL!!!). And the turning the X-box’s into kits (ya gotta build it before ya can play with it) ain’t a half bad idea.
Honestly, though, am I the only one that budgets a build before I start? Modeling is my “cheap” hobby. I have a rough idea of what I personally am willing to spend on a kit (time and money). And if I see an article in FSM that I might want to try, the TCOB would give me a yard stick to measure by. I know that I should double (or even triple) the time shown because I know my skills and available time. And to be honest, I don’t think prices for new kits vary all that much regionally. Maybe it does in other countries - well, come to think of it, even in other countries once you figure money conversion, it doesn’t vary THAT much. I have Squadron Shop right down the road from me and their prices are a bit below LHS retail. And everyone that has internet access can check them no matter what country you live in. I just recently lost my supply of $25 Tamiya armor kits. The retailer was living off of old stock and they ran out. Now they have restocked and guess what? The prices have doubled. No more Tamiya armor for me for a while because I consider $50 too much to spend on a kit. My personal limit for a kit. I am working now a 1/48 Monogram Me-109G that I paid $22 off Ebay. Really too much for this kit but I wanted it. Am I gonna spend the other $27 of my limit on AM stuff for it? Nope. But that’s all my personal decision. If someone else wants to spend $200 and 400 hours on a build, more power to them. But let’s at least get the yard stick.
I go back to my first post to clearify my point, I build for the easiest critic in the world, ME.
I build for my shelf, myself. OOB makes sense to me. But, in some cases what I call OOB is not OOB to the rest of you.
I have been modeling for quite sometime so my supply of “add on” materials is vast, wires, gears, glues, paints, decals, spare parts box(es), PE frets, PE pieces, flocking, etc. So if I add some stuff, I still consider it OOB, though “Out of Surplus Parts” may be closer to reality.
I do not consider it superdetailing, or plain detailing and neither would anyone who would see it! LOL. The modeler who is inspired to add working zues fasteners to a 1/43 scale race car has my attention and admiration, but not my desire to duplicate, no matter the cost. My skills being what they are, I could not duplicate it anyway! (The mind is willing, but arthritic fingers are no longer capable, if they ever were!)
For me, personnally, it doesn’t matter if the builder spent $5.00, 0r $500.00, a weekend or several years on his masterpiece, It inspires me to get to the bench to build and enjoy, with no thought of duplicating it.
Don
Going back to quoting prices, I would like to see that done at the end of an article. I don’t want to see the MSRP though, I want to see actually what the builder spent on the build. We all know we can find the kit cheaper on the internet, so lets reflect that in the magazine.
Or would the LHS start boycotting FSM? [:)]
Also, do we not want to show the price because it will demonstrate our obsession with the hobby?[(-D]
On a side note in regards to PS2 or Xbox games, I said last year I would never again buy a game for more than $30. I have a load of games, and I have been burned to many times on $50 games and I end up beating them in 5 hours, and they have no replayability. The only 2 games I broke my vow for was Grand Theft Auto: San ANdreas and Star Wars: Battlefront 2. Both which I knew for a fact I would get hours of playability out of, and I was right.
This disscussion has taken a few turns and is really leaning to two different directions.
The first item of focus is on the quantity of “detailed” model builds in the pages of FSM and I think both I and Jeff Herne adequately addressed that issue. Articles in the magazine run the gammit from OOTB to super-detailed with no level of construction getting any more or less exposure than any other level. Appealing to ALL levels of modelers is the goal of the magazine and will likely not change in the near future.
This second item of focus - money - raises some interesting questions. Would the inclusion of a cost breakdown really help a potential modeler? Here are some thoughts.
If my current StuG III project were to be published in the magazine and they wanted a cost breakdown, I would provide the following:
- DML kit #6033 *
- Royal Model detal set #109 *
- Jaguar resin interior set #63507 *
- CMK barrel and manlet #HB001 *
- TOTAL COST - all items with the “*” = $50.00 USD
Would this really help a modeler decide whether or not to build a model? Would it represent what they would pay to build the same kit to the same level?
What if an FSM employee built a model and the list looked like this:
- Tamiagawa kit #A8765 - Free, gift
- Aber PE set #A8765B - Free, donated by Aber for evaluation
- Blackbox cockpit #A8765C - $10.00, found in discount bin at LHS
- Plastruct sheet and rod styrene - Approximately $1.00 out of existing stockpile
- TOTAL COST - $11.00
Would this breakdown help any more?
I personally have no opinion one way or the other. FSM can include (or exclude) any information they choose. After all, it’s their magazine. An inclusion of a “price list” might help a few modelers, but IMHO, I think most modelers would simply look at the list, say “that’s interesting”, and move on to the next article.
Any thoughts?
I think the list should break down the MSRP or out of pocket cost per each item. If a company supplies a “gift” or review kit, then the MSRP is used. This would be most useful for the articles written by FSM employees, such as the Vette Matt build or the Tank that Jeff recently had on the cover, rather than the super detailed, scratchbuilt kits that are shown occasionally. If you’re not interested then your eye will automatically skip over that part, if you ARE interested then forewarned is forearmed and the information MAY be helpful. IMHO more information is better than less. I look to FSM for inspiration and information. My budget dictates whether or not I buy the Tamiya Spitfire, or the Revellogram one. Either kit (hopefully) can end up looking good, and I have no less enjoyment building the Revellogram.
Or perhaps including the price(s) would be considered too much superdetailing? [:P]
Okay, MSRP it is…(However, my own opinion is that if you’re paying full manufacturer’s MSRP for a kit, you’re not being a smart shopper…no offense intended)
However, now comes another question (and I’m just looking for opinions here, not trying to be smart). I know that many FSM employees, FSM contributors, and other modelers (like myself) have a substantial stockpile of kits and supplies. If the masses want a “price breakdown” for relatively new kits, that’s fairly simple. However, if the basic kit or even the aftermarket accessories are 5, 10, or 15 years old and potentially out of production, what MSRP gets used? The cost of the parts originally, the cost of the parts today, or for those items that are OOP, an estimate of the MSRP?
Just trying to clarify…
This is plain silly. Besides currency exchange rate problems you get into regional pricing on some stuff and what a guy on the western Pacific rim paid for an AFV Club or Pit-Road kit may be far off from what someone in the US or Europe will pay for the same because the MSRP changes by region. Don’t forget the VAT mess in Europe either, I do a fair bit of business with two ship companies over there and always have to ask what the non-EU price is. Even worse, I often can’t tell you what I spent on a model for a number of reasons…model show buying usually means cheap, I worked in a hobby shop part time for years and got 30% discounts off the tagged price, I have done some very large swap deals, my stash has so many kits and aftermarket goodies I couldn’t begin to figure out what I paid for something 6 years ago, I’ve bought literally boxes of stuff from estate sales dirt cheap, I almost never actually pay money for ship related stuff since I usually opt to take part of my research fees in goods.
As for who likes to build what…that’s a matter of taste and no amount of discussion will ever clear it up.
Personally I like some basic builds and I like some of the insane superwhizbangknockyoursocksintonextweek builds…what I loathe are drag queens…you know, the figures so overpainted Rommel looks like he’s wearing burlesque makeup and aircraft so over weathered and overshaded that they look more like renderings of architectural drawings. This applies to all modelling genres, I just picked the two most prevalent.
Time…hmmmmmmm…for a local level IPMS first place winner I built a Tamiya 1/48 ME-262 built OOB with aftermarket decals…total build time 16 hours…not 16 hours of labor because mixed into that 16 hours was 8 hours of sleep, an hour or two of TV time with the wife and an hour of caffienation and surfing the web…and not one dab of filler on the model…total cost 30% off MSRP. Now consider an intermediate level Gold Medal AMPS National winner (DML M-46 Patton with lots of PE, AFV Club tracks and scratchbuilt bits, ad nauseum with a wild paint scheme…see GSM 2004 page 23 model J) probably took me the better part of 150 hours labor…total cost I estimate at $120. Classic Warships’ North Carolina will probably take me 40-60 hours (most of which will be masking and demasking the decks and Ms12mod camo scheme), there will be no aftermarket parts to that one…monetary cost to me $0 unless you want to count the base which will probably cost about $10-15…Trumpeter’s North Carolina will be well over 100 hours (my guess is 150 or so) most of which is fixing stupid engineering and the minor accuracy errors that show enough to notice, the main & secondary turrets, 40mm’s, 20mm’s, propellors, boats, anchors, anchor chains, masts and directors will all be replaced with aftermarket parts because I simply do not want to dork around fixing them…don’t forget to add PE…cost to me monetarily is again $0…even though the stacks need to be replaced the surgery required isn’t worth the hassle.
I don’t mind listing all the stuff I used that didn’t come in the box, including specific paint colors and taking a SWAG at total labor time. I’m not going to attempt to figure out monetary costs. Another thing nobody has yet mentioned, or at least not clearly…what is your time worth TO YOU? If I were actually paying money for the Trumpeter North Carolina and all the AM parts I’d still do it that way because MY TIME is worth more to me than the cost of the parts. What I make and what my budget is do not eneter into that equation, if I can’t afford it today I’ll skip a pizza or something and afford next week or next month.
I agree that paying MSRP is not being a smart shopper, but it shows the worst case scenario, not the best case. I would like to know what the kit in the article is going to cost me before I go to the store. When people pull kits out of the stash, especially old obsolete kits, than that information replaces the cost. A newer kit that’s in production has a MSRP that is valid, an out of production kit is listed as that. That way I don’t waste my time trying to find a rare kit, unless I’m willing to search for it and pay a premium!. I’m not looking for a hard and fast rule, just an approximation of what went into the build.
I fully expect a $200 kit with another $200 worth of AM parts to end up looking fantastic. My goodness, who would spend that kind of money on something that didn’t?
What I’m trying to get is somebody with a lot of skill (say Matt Usher) can take a simple kit (his Snap-tite Vette) and turn it into something fabulous (which he did). The article would have been enhanced by the disclosure that the kit was $11, the PE was $13 and there was a minor amount of additional aftermarket items already “in stock” that went towards creating that particular show stopper.
This information may not impress a modeler with decades of experience, but it sure impresses the heck out of me, with my novice skills. I think FSM has a mutli-fold purpose: to inform, inspire and educate. The cost of building is informational and educational. The build itself is inpirational.
Other people’s opinions are silly?
Actually the MSRP remains mostly the same region for region. Currency exchange shouldn’t even factor in the equation, the vast majority of subscribers are Americans. New Products and Workbench Reviews already show the MSRP for those respective products. I don’t see the English subscribers complaining about that.
For those who don’t know, VAT is Value Added Tax, and again that shouldn’t factor into the equation. Taxes are life’s little miseries and you deal with them with every other product you buy.
This has been dealt with. In current production items get the current MSRP, OOP gets listed as OOP. This isn’t what you paid for the kit, it’s what the next person might expect to pay for the kit.
Agreed, opinions vary. No matter how silly! [:P]
Also agreed.
Time is a relative thing, and if you want to include that fine, if not, also fine. My time is different from yours, what you can build in 2 hours is different from what I can build.
Again, what I’m wishing for is a reasonable expectation of cost to the next person in line.
You listed your Me 262 as 30% off MSRP. If you knew that, you also knew the MSRP. You show an estimation of cost for the Patton, that’s interesting to know that! The two North Carolinas apparently showed up in your stash for free. Lucky you. What’s the MSRP? What can I expect to pay? Why don’t you want to inform that it cost $X to build? I find it baffling that people will research the proper color of seatbelts for a cockpit that can barely be seen once the canopy is in place, but won’t research the cost.
Sure I can research the cost myself. I could also find out how to build models all by myself and not buy a magazine that I look to for information. I’m just asking for that magazine to provide ALL the information they can.
I agree that my income and my budget is my business. All I’m asking for is some forewarning that I shouldn’t be buying that pizza!
No but about half of the issues raised are silly. Especially those relating to A’s vs. B’s taste when it comes to a modelling genre in a general modelling magazine.
Not true with many Japanese or Taiwanese kits in their “local” markets. As for new products and workbench reviews FSM is supplied that info from the manufacturer.
So it’s a kit that is current production or was OOP but is now back inproduction, most likely the shrink wrap with price sticker is long gone by the time I actually get around to building it. Or I could quote the price sticker on the kit I bought 6-10 years ago which has since almost doubled in price (Tamiya M-3 Lee/Grant, M-3/5 Stuart, M-8 MHC…). It’s a hobby and I generally ignore prices unless I’m building on commission which turns that build into business then and only then do I consider cost.
My point exactly, we all value our time differently. I value my hobby time and my business time differently when building on commission. Part of that is if I screw up a hobby build it’s my problem, if I screw up a commission build I have to fix it.
That doesn’t mean I remember or even care what the MSRP was, I just know I bought it with my 30% employee discount.
I don’t specifically remember what I spent on the Patton but I do know the general price range for the items bought specifically for it. As for MSRP on the North Carolinas I don’t know but I know the CW kit has had it’s MSRP changed since I got mine. IIRC the Trumpeter MSRP is $130 but it’s available online for around $90. It’s less “lucky me” than the fact I took part of some fees in barter instead of money. As for informing people of the cost to build, I simpy don’t care all that much about the cost to build when it’s for my hobby and I don’t really feel like knowing just how much money is in my stash either (especially I don’t want my wife to know).
And I can always go back to high stress job where figuring out ROI, costs of changes to design or processes, cost to repair vs. possible recovery of scrap value were all part of the day. Getting overly retentive about costs is not part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me.
It’s generally a safe bet that other than older DML tanks, Trumpeter tanks, 1/72 aircraft, 1/48 single piston engined fighter, most car kits, 1/35 figure sets, Revell-Monogram oldies and maybe half the 1/700 ships out there, you might want to consider skipping a pizza or two. If you’re addicted to aftermarket, there is no hope of ever having pizza again…
“If you build it, they will come”. “If you make it, someone will buy it”. That has been the norm in this hobby for years. Someone will always buy AM parts in the hope it will increase the looks of their basic kit.
Case in point. The Tamaya 1/32 scale F-16CJ. It is one beautiful looking kit. I was fooled into thinking the Black Box cockpit was the only way to go. Previews of the kit said the kit cockpit was rather basic and AM parts would make it look better. After I received the BB cockpit, I wasn’t that impressed. The tub is the only thing I will use. As it is, most of the detailing will not be visible once the model is completed. The kit supplied instrument panel, stick, throttle, rudder pedals and seat are better detailed than the BB items I received. It might be just the BB kit I received and other releases might be better detailed. I could have saved the extra cost, if I had seen the item prior to purchase.
If someone wants to take a $60.00 tank kit, buy super detailing items, which will jump the cost up to $150.00, then it is their money. Who are they building for? It may be how they complete all of their kits. They want that extra detail. You or I have no right to tell them otherwise. I, on the other hand, will not want to buy a kit and double or triple the cost with AM parts. The only thing is, these items are available and some builders will. Do they feel they have to, or are they striving toward perfection? They may feel they have to have the perfect kit in order to compete in contest or even hope in having their kit shown in FSM.
If I took a kit of the C-130, built it OOB, no added detail and submitted the article to FSM on my build. At the same time they received the article on the AC-130H. submitted by John Vojtech, which was the cover story in the February issue. Which one do you think would get published? Which one would have more appeal to the readers? The plane looking OOB or the super detailed one? We all know the answer. Readers would rather see super detailed models rather than the OOB. They can build their own kit OOB but could only dream of completing a super detailed model that was shown. It is what the readers want. We have met the enemy, and it is us.
The Trump 1/48 scale RA-5C is one fine looking model and I am told it can be built OOB and still look good. I have that kit but will not build it because of the intakes. You look down the intakes, all you see is big gapping holes, wheel well hump and the engine faces half hidden by the wheel well hump. There is a lot of enpty space that can be seen. The only way to correct it, is hope someone releases a set of intakes, or block off the intakes with a set of intake covers. That may be the way I will go several years from now when I get around to building it. Will it be super detailed? No. But I don’t want it to look like a toy, as it would look now with the intake error. Other builders may not care about it and others may go with all the AM parts available for the kit. Again, it is up to the individual.
I have the Trump 1/32 scale A-7E kit and will not be adding any AM parts to it, because IMHO none is needed. I will more than likely go with AM decals, but that is all. You can just bet in some future issue of FSM, this kit will be showcased. It will be built with the AA wingfold, BB cockpit, CC wheel wells, DD landing gear, EE canopy, FF engines, GG flight controles, HH weapons load and II decals. Here you take a $100 plus kit and add another $200 plus AM parts to it. That is way above my budget. Will some one do it? Yes they will.
I try to avoid the forum for the weekend and look what happens! 
With regards to FSM ignoring the new, incoming modelers, no, absolutely not. FSM has always catered to the broad-base of the hobby, that means the newcomer and the seasoned, grizzled veteran alike. I do believe that the average modeler is not as “average” as he once was, and that newcomers to the hobby have a much shorter learning curve than we did 30 thirty years ago.
Adding a “cost of project” list to the end of every story is not a decision I have the power to make, plain and simple. And with so many variables involved (those mentioned above), it would be problematic in my personal opinion. Many times, the authors don’t include this information.
In many instances, aftermarket parts are hoarded for years and bits and pieces from multiple sets often end up in a project. I know this is the typical scenario in my builds, I’ll use a part from this fret, something from the spares box, and some scratchbuilt stuff. Sometimes I’ll turn a part on my lathe. For me to remember what I paid for, or where I obtained, a detail part, is nearly impossible. I can’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday!!
The resources section of the feature stories usually outline the components used in a project, and when a specific PE set or resin set is used, the author will usually list the specific part number in the story.
I guess the question I should ask is this,“How many of us duplicate the projects from the pages of the magazine?”
Obviously, if you read my T-34 story, for example, you’d know that I added a turned barrel and scratchbuilt panzerfaust screens using window screen and plastic stock. If you estimate that I used 2 packages of L-channel, one package of square stock, and some window screen, you’d guess somewhere between $5 and $7. I added telephone wire to the engine, and that was leftover from the construction of my house! Other than that, the model was built OOB.
But in the literal sense, I have hundreds of pieces of styrene and brass stock laying around, and the window screen was a scrap from a $2 replacement from a local hardware store. Chances are we’ve all got a screen that needs replacement somewhere in our homes! I saved the scraps and used them on my model. Does it help the reader to know that I didn’t pay for the window screen?
I guess my point is, what do I include in the cost of the project? My Chopper II, my lathe, the weathering powders, the paint, and the airbrush and compressor? What items do we all take for granted we have, and do we include the consumables like paint and glue? I happen to categorize styrene and brass into that category as well.
What I hope happens, is that modelers read the article, get a general idea of what went into the project, and adapt it to their skills and resources.
I should also comment that I rarely jump into a project of any sort (modeling or otherwise) without doing additional research first. For me, that’s just part of the process, and sometimes, it’s more enjoyable than actually building the model!
Jeff
Instant gratification? Well, I want Jeff Herne’s skill and quality, I want it to cost $25 total and I want it now! (FOFL!!!).
As an aside…what you see in FSM with my name on it comes from nearly 30 years of non-stop modeling. It stems from not having much of a social life when I was teenager, but mostly because I truly love the hobby and history in general.
I also had a mentor growing up that taught me how to fill seams, airbrush, and all the basics of the hobby. Since I came from a military family, I wasn’t allowed to compromise on the model, because that would be considered a failure. Not exactly a great way to run your hobby, but it worked, especially now that no one is hassling me about my seams not being smooth enough!!
I guess it all boils down to priorities, and what you’re willing to put into your hobby. I know modelers that are doctors, highly successful executives, and highly-trained engineers and technicians. I can’t come close to the level of work they do, but I build better models. I can’t hit a golf ball without breaking a car windshield, I can’t surf, and when a paint brush touches canvas, it looks like Gumby when I’m done, even if it’s a landscape!
The biggest obstacles to overcome when attempting to be a “superior” modeler (and I’m not saying that I am by any stretch), are patience and a willingness to learn. Treat every part of the kit as if it were the most important part of the model, and treat every part like it’s the whole kit. A model should not be a single kit made up of parts. A model should be a collection of small kits assembled into a larger one.
As for me, well, I’m just going to keep working on my golf swing!!!
Jeff
Both you and Ron make good points, and again I’m not saying don’t build with AM parts. All I am looking for is a relative cost of the total build. That way I can decide to order AM bits or not. If a kit requires after market to correct deficiencies, then I would like to know that ahead of time and perhaps I’ll give the kit a pass. I just feel an approximate cost, even if it’s wrong, is better than no cost at all, which is definitely wrong.
PS love the Pogo quote, I miss Walt Kelly… [:(]
edit, see what happens when you take too long to post? Jeff comes along and rambles on for two whole posts worth…[:P]
Maybe I’ll just have to pay more attention to the workbench reviews. They’re mostly built OOB and have the price included… /edit