Three books reviewed by me- long post

Daywalker and many others of you asked me what book I use as referance. At that time I was doing home improvment’s and my books were packed away. I now have new shelves and my book are all in there new homes. I have reviewed the 30+ book I have on the luftwaffe and picked out the top ten I use the most and trust as accurate. I will post these very soon. In the mean time I was asked to review a new book as it was getting trashed by the hard core luftwaffe nuts. I did so and they must have liked it becasue they asked me to do 2 more. I thought some of you might find this interesting. I posted them in order I reviewed them.

Book review P-51 Mustang VS FW190

Author Martin Bowman reviewed by Stan M

In Luftwaffe circles, this book has taken a lot of heat. The author makes the argument that the only fighter the Luftwaffe had enough numbers to take the skies from the Mustang was the Fw190A-8. Thus he compares the A-8 to a P-51 D/K, I don’t think you need to write a whole book on this, in a time where aircraft tech and performance were improving at a staggering rate it’s not hard to believe that the far newer design of the P-51 had many advantages over an aircraft who had been in service since before the US was even in the war. With this being said, the Fw190A does have advantages over the P-51D/K, but not many, the A-8 has a superior rate of roll, better firepower, and ability to absorb more punishment than the P-51. Also, at altitudes of 22,00 feet and less the overall speed and performance of the A-8 is comparable to that of the later D/K Mustang. It’s really only at altitudes above 22K that the P-51 really gets any good advantage over the A-8. I think this says a lot about Kurt Tank and the A-8 that it could stay in the fight even in this late stage of the war.

I find two major problems with this this book, the first is although the author has vast knowledge of Allied aircraft, he does not seem to have the same level of knowledge on the Luftwaffe aircraft. Second, the Luftwaffe was not utilizing the Fw190A-8’s as air superiority fighters at this point in the war. This task was left up to aircraft like the Fw190D series, BF 109G14/AS, K-4’s, G-10’s, and even some ME 262’s and TA 152’s. All of these fighters were more than capable of combating the P-51 on even or in most cases better terms. Most A-8s were used in the sturmgruppe role of bomber interceptor. Although I understand the interceptor VS escort, and the fact that these two aircraft fought many times over the Reich, I would have liked to have seen a comparison between the bomber escorts and the interceptor escorts as well. Two places in the book Bowman does mention the long nose Dora and the TA 152 as being better fighters and even states that the D-9 was a match for the P-51 but goes no further on the subject. Rather this is due to space constraints typical of the Osprey publications or like the History channels show Dogfights where comparing the P-51 to anything that might be better is a no no. The title should read as P-51D VS FW190A-8 as these are what is actually being compared. Bowman’s lack of 190 technical knowledge can be seen on page 70 where there is a gun camera picture of a shot up 190A-8 with one landing gear strut down. The caption along side says “The fighters right gear leg has dropped open, indicating that the Focke-Wulfs hydraulic system has been holed- this is a sure sign that the aircraft was doomed” . The problem is the Fw190A-8’s landing struts were operated by an electric motors NOT hydraulics. Most likely the motor or actuator lock was hit . I think the book paints an accurate picture of the fw190A-8 performance against the P-51D despite what other have said. You can tell that the author does have more nut and bolt knowledge of the P-51 then he does the fw190, but most of the info presented is correct. No book is 100% accurate.

Now that I have addressed what I feel are the only two errors with the book , I have say that I do agree with the authors comparison between the FW190A-8 and a P-51D/K Mustang. The book gives the reader extensive background into the pros and cons of each plane. I also like that the book not only comes to the table with the ton of statistics, but also touches on pilot training and the aces/experten who flew them. This along with info on aircraft development, strategic situation and tactics used by both sides helps to show a clear picture of these two fighters. I think that P-51 mustang VS FW 190 give the reader a very accurate view of these two aircraft in combat. Overall I would say Bowman did outstanding job on this book. I hope he will do a Dora 9 vs. P-51D. I like to see how he tackles this.

Finally unlike the USAAF where large quantities were important, the Luftwaffe strategy was more modern. they produced fewer tanks and fighters but these were cutting edge and the best that could be built. You don’t see today’s US Air Force producing tens of thousands of B-2’s or F-22’s. Rather the cutting edge technology and quality of the machine in question make the difference over numbers. Aircraft production in the Reich peeked in 1944. They had hundreds of 262 sitting waiting to be converted into bombers. The Reich did not lack aircraft late in the war. They could have used more experienced pilots but fuel was the big thing that was missing. Most Luftwaffe aircraft and pilots sat on the ground due to lack of fuel. Aircraft like the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9/11/12/13, and TA152’s were far superior to any Allied fighter flying in 1945. The problem was they lacked the fuel to support any good defensive action. Another point to make is It doesn’t matter how good a fighter you have if you are out numbered almost 20 to one or have no fuel to fly. By the end of 1944 P-51’s were rolling off the assembly line faster then Twinkies at a rate of one every 10 minutes. There was no chance the Luftwaffe could win against those numbers. The P-51 Mustang’s greatest advantage was its superior numbers not superior performance.

Spitfire VS Bf109

Battle of Britain by tony Holmes

Book review by Stan M

This is a great book for anyone who loves WWII air combat or the battle of Britain. Written in the same format as the other Osprey VS books, this book not only has a great staticial break down of both fighters but also all the other things that play into making a comparison like this. Spitfire vs. Bf109 gives the reader a comprehensive look at not only the planes and their development but also the pilots, pilot training, the tactics and strategy used. One thing Often overlooked by many is the Luftwaffe was the first modern airforce in terms of both aircraft, and tactics they used. Developed by reich Experten these new tactics were one of the big reasons why Reich pilots had such high number of airieal victories. This book touches on this point briefly. Fighter commands operation and thinking are also described enough to give the reader a good idea of what was happening on the RAF side.

What is basically being pitted against one another is a spitfire MK.IA vs. a Bf109E-3. Other types are discussed but for the most part these are the combatants. As many of you already know these two fighters at this junction of the war are almost equal adversaries. Other good points of this are the excellent period photos and very well researched info . This book reads very well and give a clean, precise and most importantly accurate look into these two wariors. Tony Holmes has done a bag up job on this publication and I do hope he authors more like it.

Most of the referanece books on my shelf are hard cover and run between 50 and 120 dollars.I must say don’t let the small size or price tag fool you the statistics and analysis info alone in SpitfireVS BF109 makes it a must own for Battle of Britain fans. I also recommend Reading THE FEW By Alex Kershaw. This book chronicles the lives of the first eagle squadron pilots during the battle of Britain and compliments spitfire vs. bf 109 nicely.

P-47 Thunderbolt VS BF109G/K

By Martin Bowman

Reviewed by Stan M

This book follows that same format as the other Osprey VS books, so there are no surprises there. P-47 Thunderbolt VS BF109G/K is authored by Martin Boman, the same writer of P-51 Mustang VS FW 190. Like his previous book, this book has a lot of excellent info on the general history, strategic situation, and fighter development of both sides. The info about the various T-bolts and their performance is top notch; it has a ton of figures for allied fighter victories and easily picks out the weakness of the Luftwaffe. Figures on the Luftwaffe’s side are sparse at best. The fighters being compared are the P-47D-25 VS Bf109G-6 early version. Like his previous book I find two major problems with this book: One he lacks the same level of knowledge on the 109 and Luftwaffe as he does the USAAF and the P-47. Two because of this, the book is riddled the contradictory info and errors mostly about the performance and technical data concerning the 109. This same problem can be found in P-51 Vs FW190. If you are very knowledgeable about Reich fighters these are simple to pick out, if not then it would be easy for the novice reader to take everything as fact. Because there is a good amount of well researched historically accurate data to lead one with a fair knowledge of WWII aviation history to take it all at face value.

I will not go into all the problems I found, but here are a few of the biggies. On page 28 it seems to indicate that the G-6 could have been powered by the DB605D engine. No G-6 was ever produced with this power plant. Page 56 “Messerschmitt handling was also outmoded by 1944” Other places in the book praise the performance of the 109 (page 59)? On page 58 bombers usually operate at altitudes in excess of 24K, two pages over the Luftwaffe is intercepting them at 20 to 25K. Bombers usually operated between 19K and 25K tops. I have seen many after action reports on both sides of bomber formations being intercepted at 18K. Page 69 refers to a “special supercharged” 109, I think they meant those 109’s powered with the AS or ASM power plants. Finally stated on page 21 the G-10 top speed of 437 MPH at 24,921 is the rough figure for the 605D on 87 octane. Depending on the octane and engine combination used, the G-10’s top speed could have been 452 mph at 29,952 with the DCM and 100 octane. The K-4’s top speed with the same combo was 455 MPH at 31,000 feet.

I found this book confusing and hard to read due to all the conflicting info. No clear answers are ever given. Info changes from page to page to the point that the reader can’t even get a good idea of the 109 performance, or how it would fair against the Thunderbolt. Also despite having the K in the title the 109K is never matched up to a late P-47D-RE or even a D-35-RA. The K is really only mentioned in the one paragraph. This books giving excellent background info on the fighters and ETO operations on both sides it’s is a little cryptic in comparing the P-47D-25 and Bf109G-6 early version. P-47 Thunderbolt VS Bf109G/K has a few more errors and misinformation than P-51 Mustang VS FW190.

Here are the number stats and info left out. The bomber attrition rate average was just over 40%, and on some sorties it was as high as 87% (black Thursday). This meant the Luftwaffe was downing just under half of all daylight bombers. This didn’t slow up until the P-51 started flying escort cutting the bomber losses by half. The Luftwaffe stopped shooting down allied aircraft it just means they shot down fewer bombers. P-51 CLAIMED 4,950 air victories but suffered 2,520 combat losses. This means that the Luftwaffe was still inflecting a 20% attrition rate to the bombers while still downing 1.2 P-51 for every 2 losses to there own. Remember they did this while being out numbered by as many as 20 to 1. As time wore on bomber losses would fall due to the Luftwaffe’s lack of fuel and air fields. In the end the Luftwaffe lost the war but won the war of attrition. Destroying some 70,000 allied aircraft to the loss of 62,500 of their own.

A note on BFf109 weight gain:

For some reason the myth has risen that 109 kept getting heaver and heavier, thus the K-4 is so overweight it no longer performs as well as other 109’s. This it completely false, the 109 series did steadily increase in weight from the early B to the G-6. The G-6 was the heaviest of all 109’s and had the most aerodynamic compromise. Because of this, the G-6 performance is well under that of both earlier and latter machines. This is also why every book and TV show quotes the G-6 performance specs. The G-14 weight for the most part was the same as the G-6-no gains no loss. Many G-10’s were nothing more than G-14’s with some K parts and possibly the K’s power plant. Some G-10’s on the other hand were stripped models, this meant no equipment for Rustatze options or added plumbing for a drop tank, making some G-10’s slightly lighter but not heavier.

The K-4 is basically a new 109 all together. Using lighter materials and never designed to carry any Rustatze options except for some utilizing a center drop tank. The only thing adding any extra weight to the K-4 was a larger MW50 tank (coud be found in some G-10 and G-14/AS as well). This meant the K-4 was slightly lighter than the G-6/14 but not as light as the earlier models. Couple this with a 2000+ HP engine and other refinemets it easy to see the K-4 is a perdator and quite possibly the best close quarters fighter in the ETO. Late mark spits and Ta’s can duke it out with the K-4 for top honors in this class.

The K-4 was able to easily out climb and turn inside any P-51. In level flight it was 20 MPH faster, wielding a 30 MM cannon gave the K-4 a one shot one kill possibility against the P-51. The only advantages a P-51D block 20 thru 30 had over the K-4, was range and dive performance. This meant in a one on one dogfight the K-4 had control of the fight. In closing I will bust this myth. The G-6 did receive larger tires (660x160) and it was due to weight and add on options. Then the G-10/14 and K-4 received wider tires (660x190). If they didn’t get heavier why the larger tires? Two reasons: One Messerschmitt thought the wider tires would aid the 109’s in take offs and landings on the improvised air fields they were forced to use late in the war. Second, Messerschmitt needed a tire capable of handling more weight and faster landing speeds anyway. You guessed it, the same tire found on the 109 can also be found on the front landing gear of the Messerschmitt jet fighter, the ME 262. Facts are much more interesting then the myths many books would have you believe.

Stan,

Thank you for this post, a very interesting analysis. I have seen these books at my local Barnes and Noble, and flipped through the BoB book a couple of times. I was especially impressed by your breakdown of the newest title “Mustang vs 190”. Sounds like comparing these two fighters is like comparing apples to oranges.

Very intriguing info on the later 109s as well! While building Yellow “5” a while back, I read quite a bit of info (a lot of it provided by you!) on the late variants of the 109 series and the stunning performance when compared to current USAAF machines. I recall reading similar reports from some of the late Japanese birds namely the Ki-84. WHen filled with quality petrol, and tuned up, some of these aircraft flew circles around comparable US fighters.

I also read somewhere about Luftwaffe mechanics intentionally de-tuning the BMW radials to prolong service life and minimize engine replacements at a time when replacements could be difficult to preform or obtain. Have you any other info on this? The story I read mentions a few surprised Allied mechanics when they got their hands on a captured example and found this. Imagine their surprise to find that the relatively small performance difference could have been much wider had the Luftwaffe been able to supply the necessary fuel and supplies to keep those engines highly tuned.

I would be very interested to hear what you know about that story and whether it may be true or just a myth.

Also, after seeing photos and reading the info you gave me on Black “7” (the Bf-109G-10/U4) that is DEFINATELY my next 109.

Thanks again Stan for all of that info, and I am really looking forward to seeing your “top 10.” [:D]

Great review Stan! Going to the picnic Sun.??

Jerry

Dont mean to start a big arguement, but I disagree that the mustang only won cause of numbers. I Think it had superior performance to most german fighters. I think the Ta-152 and D-9 were equal. With the Me-262 being best.

I saw Dogfights (P-51) And it showed what a good fighter it was.

I have all three in my library but have to confess that I haven’t perused them in the depth shown by your reviews. In general, I found the books to be well written & informative. I was aware of some of the errors you point out, but as you said, no reference is perfect. That’s why we keep buying new ones [:)].

Thanks for the reviews. Looking forward to your top 10 list.

Regards, Rick

Another aspect to consider is that the Luftwaffe was losing many, many of their best pilots through wartime attrition. So, even if the Fw-190 was a better fighter, it would only be a better fighter in the hands of experienced pilots. The Americans had the better pilots, and, accordingly, better kill ratios with supposedly “inferior” aircraft. This is what made the American aircraft better - American pilots, with FAR superior American training.

I have to call you on that one. Although there is validity to your statement of superior numbers of United States Aircraft, that in no way discounts the high quality of the P-51 Mustang.

The poor octane rating of scarce, German, aviation fuel would more than likely be an equal factor to the quantity of adversaries.

Thanks jerry, me and the old bat will be there

Frank, I have not heard that. This doesn’t mean it not true. I know alot of aircraft were sabatoged after the war. Not only with bombs but mechanically. Some engines like the DB605ASM could be tuned to fuel at hand and if they were using MW50 or not. So I guess you could consider them detuned if running 87 and no MW50. Post war testing indcated that they could have got more power out 130 octane fuels, but 150 caused problems due to slow burning. The luftwaffe engines jut were not made to take advantage to that high octane fuels. If you got some info on this send it to me. Ill poke around and see what I can find.

Rjkplasticmod, you are right, these books are not bad. I have read far worse and paid more for them. I happen to know more than the average job about the luftwaffe and thus nit picked them to a certain point. Also keep in mind these reviews were writen for a luftwaffe site/pubication thus the focus on this part. I did not write these for general public. I know you guys on here have a ton of knowledge and thus might find some of the rubuttal info interesting. On top of people asking me what books I get my info from.

Raptordriver, don’t believe everything you see on TV. That show dogfght had more bad info in it than all three of these book put together. I have to ask did you base your belief that the P-51 was superior to most reich fighters solely on this TV show? Or do you have other sources leading you to this? Can you provide accurate performance specs for a P-51D-30 or a P-51D-NA and say a FW190D-9 or bf109K-4? If you like these let me know and I’ll post them.

Devil Dawg I agree with you and disagree with you. Early war the luftwaffe piots were far better trained and experienced. Mid war things started to even out as the american pilots gained experience and took this experience back to training schools in the US. They also learn what to expect fron the luftwaffe and how to get the most out there new fighters. Late war I agree US training was far superior to anything the poor luftwaffe pilotes were getting. Some newbies had less then 20 hours in the cockpit. There is gun camera pics of them getting shot out of the sky flying level with there drop tanks still on. Late war allies faced 2 types of luftwaffe pilots those who were easy pray and those who were almost untouchable. As far a better kill ratios That’s not possible. Allied had fewer targets and many more aircraft in the air. This means the numbers do not tell the story on the US side. many US pilots were just as good as any 300+ kill experten but when you cruch the number of P-51 in service VS victories it looks bad. That becasue there were 20 P-51’s for every 109/190 and the experten were shouldering most of the kills. If you get what I mean.

Number of allied pilots with 300 kills none

number of allied plots with 200 kills none

number of allied pilots with 100 kills none

The luftwaffe had 103 pilots with 100+ kills. By US standereds (5 kills=ace) the luftaffe fielded more than 500 aces. The bf109 shot down more aircraft any any in history. What does this prove, yah the luftwaffe was the most leathal airforces in the world.

Many luftwaffe nuts will use statistics (like above) to show how superior the luftwaffe was. Numbers do not tell the whole story.The statistics will always be in the luftwaffe favor. hence why books usually trash luftwaffe aircraft instead. If you found stats that say US had better kills rato then luftwaffe then it’s false. I agree 100% that the pilots made the P-51 what it was. But for some reason many would have you believe the P-51 was some sort of super fighter.

Here you go raptordriver. P-51D-25 block 30 with all the extras. 1650-7 engine with 72" and running on 150 octane. The best D in the stable and very late war. In this corner the bf109K-4 best of the breed. Not DCM powered but DM. Mustang data from USAAF evulation, and NACA testing. K-4 data from messerschmitt AG tests and RLM evulation data. Right from the hose mouth so to speek.

Bf 109K-4 Statistics:

Engine: Daimler Benz DB-605D with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,000 HP.
Max. Speed: 727 km/h. (452 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1,470 m/min (4,823 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 2,673 kg. (5,298 lbs.)
Loaded Weight Clean: 3,148 kg. (6,940 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 3,373 kg. (7,438 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 9.97 m. (32.7 ft.)
Wing-Area: 16.4 sq.m. (176.6 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG’s (MG 131) & 1x 30mm cannon (MK 10.

Bf 109K-4 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading Loaded: 191.9 kg/sq.m. (39.2 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.06 .
Airfoil: NACA 2R1 14.2 - 2R1 11.35.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.2% Tip= 11.35%.
Wing CL-max Freeflow: 1.48 . (No slats or flaps deployed)

Lift-loading Loaded: 129.69 kg/sq.m. (26.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading Loaded: 1.57 kg/hp. (3.47 lbs/hp.)

Bf 109K-4 Additional features:

-Automatic-Slats & Flettner-Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & Friese ailerons.

P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,720 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1,060 m/min. (3,478 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,175 kg. (7,000 lbs.)
Loaded Weight Clean: 4,286 kg. (9,449 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,487 kg. (12,096 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.83 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG’s (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading Loaded: 196.33 kg/sq.m. (40.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: “Laminar” NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max Freeflow: 1.28 . (No flaps deployed)

Lift-loading Loaded: 153.38 kg/sq.m. (31.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading Loaded: 2.49 kg/hp. ( 5.49 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.

Wing Cl-max were obtained from:

Bf-109: from full scale Windtunnel test in Charlais Meudan.
P-51: from Naca Report 829, Page 26 in the PDF of the Naca Report server.

As you can see the P-51 dose not show well again the K-4 or a G-10. Only when places against the old over weight G-6 does the P-51 stats look good. The Problem is this late war P-51 would not have seen many G-6’s fighters at this point in the war. It’s primany foe would have been the G-14/AS, K-4,G-10, D-9’s. Dogfights the TV show did just this. By the time this D entered service and was cleared for that much boost the G-6’s were used as gunboats or in a secondary roll only. The time line must match up to be fair. I also wouldn’t compare a P47C against a G-10. See what I mean. How many 47C were front line in 1945?

Agreed Trexx, the P-51 was not a poor fighter by any standereds. In fact it was one of the best out at the time. In the right hands the P-51 could hold it’s own against most adversaries. The P-51D and Fw190D-9 performance are almost the same in all repsects. In fact at higher altitudes and speed the P-51 would be my allied fighter of choice. My big problem with the P-51 is too many people think it’s something it’s not. The hype around this fighter is crazy. If fact I would go as far as to say the P-51 and or the D-9 were probably the best all around fighters in the sky. The late 109’s and spitfires were better but very hard to handle.

Stan, just to satisfy this guy’s curiosity, do you have any numbers that compare the combat ranges of the 109’s and the P-51’s? I’ve heard that this was a major weak point of at least the E series. I also recall hearing somewhere that the Luftwaffe would have had better success during the BoB if they had been flying zero’s. Do you recall hearing anything along those lines?

Ruddratt, you are correct. A weak point of all luftwaffe fighters has been range. Not being variant specific all 109’s had a range under 500 miles on internal stores. at full combat power they only had an endurance of about 60 min. Rall once said “what the bf109 can do for 90 minunts the P-51 can do for 8 hours”. The 109 was not an escort fighter or a defence fighter (bomber destroyer). It was meant as a air superiorty fighter (fighter vs fighter). During BOB when it was forced to escort the bombers it failed at this task due to it’s very short range. Once over the channel 109E’s only had about 10 min of fuel left for combat before they had to head back to the reich. 109’s during bob could handle spitfires IF allowed to fly independ of the bombers. flying with the bombers meant the 109 could not use it’s higher altitude advantage over the spits and come screaming in (the saying watch for the huns in the sun). Goring screwed up again!

During the defence of the reich many 109’s were forced to carry extra armerment to combat the US heavy bombers which were not easy to take down. This killed the 109 biggest strength it’s maneuverability. 109’s had a better rate of climb and better high alititude performance the the 109A’s. But lacked the A’s punch and armor protection. This bring up another thing.109’s are very small, this is one thing that makes them good dogfighters. Hard to hit hard to see and track through the air, light too, But They don’t take punishment well at all. Everything is packed into a 109 so tight it’s nearly impossible not to hit something important. Second 109’s were hard to fly in good working order, shoot one up and your chances of landing it are not so good. The 109 was a excellent fighter for an experienced pilot who could use the light handling nature of the 109 to his advantage, for a newbe it was a handfull. 109’s equipted with underwing rockets or cannons were sitting ducks for P-47 or P-51 escorts.

When used as they were designed 109’s were great. but they were most diffently not mulit roll fighters.

I should point out that unlike the early type zero fighters the 109 did have pilot armor protection and self sealing fuel cells. they would not burst into flames like the zero when hit. The armor would stop a 50 cal. but the whole cockpit was not armored like P-47 or a wildcat hellcat. There was armor around the pilots head, behind him protecting the fuselage fuel cell, and armored glass in the front most pane only. Like the zero the 109 pays the price for small light nimble airframe.

I appreciate you getting back to me on that, Stan, thanks! [tup]

The reason I mentioned what I heard about the scenario of the zeke if it had been employed in the BoB instead of the E series of 109 was in large part related to what you stated in your post, in regards to range. I am not sure how the two (the Zeke and the Emil) compare performancewise, but I got the impression that the zeke had a greater combat radius, which would have made it more of an asset to the Luftwaffe during BoB time. However, you opened my eyes to the fact that either one would have been playing a roll they weren’t origionally designed for (that of escort fighter), so I wonder now how much of an advantage the Zeke really would have offered. It’s interesting to ponder. Thanks again! [tup]

I know the zero had really good range but I don’t know figures for it off the top of my head. Range was one thing the japanese built into it, not alot of air fields in the pacific[:O] I have compared the corsair to luftwaffe fighters but never the zero. I may have to look into that. I have found finding good info on japanese aircraft is more diffucult then Reich aircraft. it may take me a while to come up with something reliable. The US tested them I should be able to get that info from the national archives or the WWII archives. If not i’ll contact mit directly they may still have data for them (messerschmitt does).

During the blitz campain of poland and france the Reich ground forces were taking airfield as they were advancing so range was not an issue. In the Reich defence years they were operating over there own terratory so again range was not is problem. Getting over the channel and being able to get air dominance over britian was impossible for the 109. The spitfire performance was as good or better then the 109’s and they were operating home field advantage. The luftwaffe out numberd the RAF 3 to 1 but like the allies early on the reich lacked a fighter capable of getting over the channel to protect the bombers,stukes and bf110 that were getting chewed up and spit out by the RAF. Had the fat man commited more gruppen to the operation and let them do fighter sweeps over the channel they might have won. Reich upper mangment thought they could get rid of the RAF in 2 weeks. Too bad the spitfire didn’t see things that way.

Stan,

Wow, what a great post of informative information on wwii fighters!

Just wondering are you a pilot? your insight makes for gret reading.

Looking forward to your top 10

DR

The 109 was of course not designed to be a fighter-interceptor, much less of hordes of bombers. It was the greatest fighter of the 30’s.

Beyond the '30’s IMO. When the Friedrich was introduced it was arguably the best the fighter in the ETO, if not the world. Coupled with an extremely seasoned cadre of pilots the Luftwaffe was on top of their game.

If you want to look at how the 109 and 190 performed in their intended roles, the Channel Front during 1942 is an interesting study. The Luftwaffe was very succesful operating against the RAF incursions into France, to the point where the RAF actually had to suspend operations at one point due to the high rate of attrition of Spitfires.

The Mustang, Spitfire, 190 and 109 were all excellent fighters but all had weak points as well. As Stan mentioned the 109 and 190 are often treated unfairly due to Germany’s deteroriating war situation, e.g. insufficiently trained pilots and lack of fuel. As things got worse the Jagdwaffe was also issued an order to attack the bombers and ignore the fighters which made things even worse.

Thanks Dr Faust, Nop not a pilot. I have taken rides in a B-17, P-51D, and a F-4 thats about as close as I get. I just like avation and WWII avation in general.

Here’s the thing that got me looking at the luftwaffe to start with many years ago. Alot of time read how late in the war the luftwaffe had no good pilots there planes were as good, they had no fuel, you know the drill. This describes japan at wars end. Japan had few good pilots, many flying aircraft under the performance of those flown by the US and had fuel problems as well. Now heres where you use stats and numbers. The US in the PTO was stomping them. Late war figuers were 10 to 1 or sometimes as high as 20 to 1 Kill ratos in favor of the US (marianas turkey shoot). IF the situation was the same for the Reich why were the allied stats in the ETO not similar. This is becasue the Reich did lack fuel, but still had good pilots and excellent aircraft right up to the end. The allies over the reich had to fight hard for any ground they gained in the air. In the PTO the US kill to loss ratio on average was 12 to 1 late war. In the ETO the average was 3 to 1 late war.

SO if all these books are right and the reich aircraft were not as good, most of there good pilots are gone, and they were out numbered this can only mean the ETO allied pilots must have been pretty bad compared to the PTO counter parts. Also keep in mind the US highest scoring ace is in the PTO. See how things don’t add up, anyone who pays attention can figure out something stinks. Fact is the reich had some of the best fighters and still had a fair number of good pilots. What they didn’t have was enough of them in time to change the war. So I do agree with this statement, too little, too late.

Early and mid war the reich was in the lead and the allies were up grading there aircraft to keep pace with new reich mechines. Late war aircraft like the Ta-152, and me262 were to counter the ever increasing performance of allied fighters. The tables had turned.

Hay it’s luftwaffle, Yah another bad decision made by higher up’s. Both the 109 and the 190 in there various forms remained very leathal fighters throught the war. even if the were not used as intended. One guy (I forget his name) said place the P-51 and P-47 in the same situation as the 109 and 190, could they have done as good?

Stan, your extensive knowledge is amazing. It would be great to have a list of your 30+ hardbacks that you refer too. Just to see if we have some of the same.

Great reviews on the 3 titles btw.

…Guy

Stan - awesome post, very very informative! Also very fair, data-based analysis, no fan-boy rah rahs. Thanks for postinG!