Ok I bought it cause I like the M113 and it was on sale. So here’s the question(s). Can I make this into an M113a3 (I don’t plan on doing any interior work) to model one from OIF with bar armor? I think I gots the pics from Prime Portal (Great site) and I want to try to do one.
Grizz
It is a pretty good kit. It is closer to an M113A3 out of the box though, sort of. To build it as an A2, you would only need to leave the external fuel tanks off, and replace them with the rear track guards (parts A6 and A7, listed as not used). Only A3 versions (with a couple exceptions; M981A2 FIST-Vs and some M113A2 Ambulances) have the external fuel tanks. To make an accurate A3 version with external fuel tanks, there needs to be a few additions. Check out Pawel’s M113A3 to see what needs to be added. Most notably, it is missing the added armor on the front glacis plate and the rear ramp has new, beefier hinges and a new tow pintle set-up.
Here is a review of it from PMMS as well.
Both M113A2s and M113A3s were/are being used in OIF.
Good luck.
OK cool that sounds good. O by the way I was wrong the pictures I found with m113 bar armor was at Toadman’s Tank pictures (another excellant site for pics)
Grizz
Hello there you two I’d like to add something if I may grizz your going to need to get or order the updated M113 tracks from Friulmodel or AFV. I’m working on an M113 APC kit my self and I had to get new tracks also. There’s two types of tracks linked and rubber band type, it’s up to you and it look’s like you my have the skill to do the Mattel link tracks. I’m building one of my M113s in the M113 GB in that section., and I to need to scratch build the external gas tanks also. I to got two stock Tamiya M113 APC kits that were on sale realy cheap. Good luck on your project.
I think the tracks are made of led, well any way here’s some links:
http://www.internethobbies.com/fr1m1m5mchvu.html
http://squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=AC35064&Submit3=Go
Here’s some cool looking art images of M113s:(In 1/72 but can be sude in 1/35)
http://www.modellbahnecke.de/bilder/trumpeter/735002.jpg
I went for the cheaper rubber band type[(-D]
Short story from my past. I as a child use to have an army men set full of all types of soldiers and some tanks as I called them years later it was told to me that they were APCs not battle tanks. What did I care I was the only kid that had them on my block. Fast forward to the present, here I am work in on the same vehicle that I had as a child weird huh. Know after reading up on the M113s history, I see why I like It and the Bradley so much and built one. Well that was a short childhood story.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_Armored_Personnel_Carrier
M113A1/A2 to M113A3 conversion Links:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5924195.html
This is by far the best work (Built Models) I have ever seen, Lots of M113s here just scroll down (AWSOME)
You don’t have to change the tracks at all, really no need to. The kit rubber band ones can be made to look pretty nice. The AFV Club ones you have linked are basically the same as the Tamiya ones, no real improvement. The Fruil ones you linked to are made of metal and can be used, but I don’t think they are worth the expense ($36.95 plus shipping is nuts), to each their own.
[(-D] well Heavy it’s to late I have ordered the AFV tracks once they get here I will post images of them next to the kit stock ones to show every one what the kits tracks look like side by side. later to day I will start up a new post on my M113s and post stuff like that there and here also.
Heavy - I can’t seem to get your link to work to “Pawel’s M113” - can you repost that if you get a chance? Thanks! [^]
Hmm, should work now. Not sure why it went inactive.
Thanks Heavy. [;)]
I am sort of with heavy art concerning the tracks, I’ve looked at the metal ones and just didn’t think it was worth it. I do always tie them down if I don’t have the side skirts on. One area that truely begs to be worked on is the engine screens on top. I have a couple of Eduards PE sets that and I always use then screens, some of the other details I can live with.
Grizz
From Squadron online I get my M113 rubber tracks in so here are the AFV and Tamiya tracks side by side. On the right are is the AFV tracks and ion the left are the Tamiya APC tracks. I like the AFV versions better if your going to build your M113 up to date but if your building one that old dated the kit track will work well. Now if any of you have the new M113 OIF or IDF versions as I don’t have the tracks for and of them nore have I seen any of them up close. So if any of you have any of the kits I menchend please post some clear pics’.
Vince
OK you guys I have just looked over my two M113 projects and I see that I was rong on wich project get’s the updated tracks. The IDF Ambulance uses the AFV tracks and the ADATS uses the old stock type. I’m glad I just found that out now I won’t need to buy any more. Soon as I get more done on them both, I will start a new post on the two.
Now I’m not following you at all. No idea what you are looking at for references, but…
Both the Tamiya kit tracks and the AFV Club after market tracks are T130E1 tracks. AFV Clubs may be a little nicer and better defined, but they are the same version. The M113 in US service has always had T130E1 tracks, until recently when we switced to Diehl tracks. It has only been within the last few years though.
The newer Diehl track has a longer rectangle pad and has new sprockets that go with it. The sprocket is wider and catches the outside edge of the track (like an Abrams), which has end connectors as opposed to pins that connect them. Not all US M113s have been converted to the Diehl tracks though, so T130E1 tracks are still correct.
M113A3 in Iraq w/Diehl tracks.
OK Heavy I see you don’t understand what kit I’m talking about. I will try and make this simple by showing you the kit were my M113 tracks come from and the two project that will be based on. Oh and I’m not building the M113 type that’s in Iraq right now. Un-like some of you that have deep pockets, I found this kit on sale (16.00) so I got two:
Now on the first of my two projects I wanted to build the M113/ADATS but I didn’t go out and get the newer M113 based on the one from the OIF kit like a lot of you I love to scratch build and I know that I can build the old M113 or convert the old type to the updated version. An wile looking over my references Photos I see that the tracks on my first project are the same as the ones in the STOCK Tamiya ACAV M113 kit(Shown Above). An that I needed to get the more updated track for the othere build, my IDF Ambulance. Know look close at the M113 tracks. An you can see that the track-pads on the ADATS are not the same as the updated track-pads on the IDF M113.
ADATS Tracks: Like that of the Tamiya Kit of the M113 ACAV
M113 ACAV tracks on the left. Updated track on the right.
Older IDF Amulance or Medics use the same as the ADATS M113 but I’m doing the newer version that has the rear external gas tanks. and I know that, that’s the same version that is in Iraq so why buy a new kit for 30. bucks when all I need to do is get the updated tracks and scratch build the external parts I need to make the vehicle look the way I need it to.
Look here in the first image, it’s the old version of a IDF Ambulance or Medic that is used for tranning some times.
It has what looks like the singel block type of the Tamiya ACAV kit, but on the M113 type that is in Iraq that has the external tanks has the newer version or the better looking T130E1 tracks. Like that of the AFV tracks. See in the image here look up the line and you can see the M113A1s an some A2 converted versions. An that is what I’m going to build and to get the M113A3 upgrade version to look right,. I need the better looking tracks.
As you can see the tracks on this M113A3 are not the same small block style, and from talking a friend in Israel that the type you see in this image is the right type for the the M113A1 and A2 IDF Ambulance. Oh I need to say that they (The IDF) mostly use the basic M113,A1,A2s not the A3 and on some of the A1s and A2s they just add the external gas tanks as needed. he told my to post these image.
M113A1
M113A2
And use the External tanks like the M113A3. Well you could just say they upgraded there M113s.
See here IDF forces use a track that looks like the AFV track.
Unlike the rectangle shape rubber pad of the M113 you showed. After talking with my friend (In Israel) he said he see’s where the hang up is you Heavy are right the matel part of the tracks are the same but it’s the foot pad or rubber padding thats different on some M113s and my use of the AFV tracks will make my build look closer to the 1:1 M113 being used over there now. So you and I are right from our own point of views. I hope you see what I’m talking about now. I think I can only say this I’m not going to buy a full kit to get what I need when I can buy only the tracks and build what ever I need. Like you did in the interior of your bradley.
I looked all over for an resin Interior set that looks like what you built but no luck, then I copyed your images a made them bigger and noticed that a lot of the work on the parts have or has bean scratch build but may be that’s because the images were a little fuzzy as they are small to start with. But my next bradley will look even better this time. If I can get my girl to get one of the guys over there to let her take photo or take them, them self so I can realy see what the turret interior realy looks like from the inside.
Any way back to the M113s Tomorrow I’m going to start the stand alone post of my ADATS M113A2 so you can go over it with a fine tooth come as know one has done it in 1/35 yet and I want to be the first here on FSF to do one. As for my IDF Ambulance there’s not much to be done on the exterior but a lot on the interior, so I know that you have done a M113 amblance or Medic version and will love your in put on that build, but I must tell you this that on the IDF feld Medic the bed racks are updated to the type use in the M113A3s and M2A3s in Iraq to day. Not the old NAM versions. the racks can fold up and the seats can swivle and move in the center between the beds. I’ll start that post after the start of the M113/ADATS.
I also found this but I can’t print it out yet: Some type of MRE box print.
http://www.southeasthobbies.com.au/catalogue/aussie-armour/MA307.jpg
I am sorry, but your Isreali friend is wrong. I guess the issue is that both of you think there are two different types of T130E1 tracks. Again, all the pics you have shown, with the exception of the ADATS, have standard T130E1 tracks. Some of the pics are dististorted and widened too, giving the appearance of wider pads. The amount of rubber on the track pad is a function of wear. The newer the track, the less wear and the pad looks bigger. The more wear, and the pad looks smaller. Both the Tamiya kit tracks and the AFV Club aftermarket tracks are meant to be the same. Tamiya’s looks smaller since they are molded poorer and older. The AFV Club vearsion is simply molded better. The Academy M113A3 Iraq kit has standard T130E1 tracks as well.
The ADATS has M113G NATO/German track on it. It is not the same as the newer Deihl tracks on some M113A3s though. AFV Club also makes these, along w/new drive sprockets in plastic, or as rubber band style tracks.
I’m not telling you to buy any other kit either. The kit tracks are fine for IDF M113s. I only posted the new Diehl tracks as an example. They are not available in any kit anyways. They can only be had by a resin company, MR Model, I think.
By the way, I know what the differences between an A1, A2, and A3 are. I have been in the Army a few years now (almost 15) and modeling for longer. I’ve been on these vehicles and in and out of the maintenance manuals etc. I do have an idea what I am talking about.
On my M113A3 Ambulance, I did scratch most of the interior. I used the stretchers and copies of medical chests from the Academy M997 HMMWV ambulance kit. The rest is scratched. There is no resin set for it. What new ambulance interior do you men though, US M113 Ambulances still have the set-up in mine? There are no Bradley ambulances either. There were a few for testing without a turret, but it was not accepted for production. It was called the Bradley AMEV (Armored Medical Evac Vehicle).
Good luck on your builds.
As I have stated before your right on the metal part of the standard T130E1 track but is the pad the same or can it be changed? To show a shape like one of these:
An as for the friction and wear on the pads. I know that it can cause the pad’s thickness to wear down but can the wear on a pad cause it to shrink it’s length from the original shape down as well as it’s thickness. An If I came across as to you not knowing your M113s I’m sorry it came out that way. But I do see that the pad on the ADATS is the not the same as the T130E1 pad of the IDF as you pointed out the images is in error.
The pad fg.4 is the true shape and pad fg.5 is from and images that was rong. as for the metal part of the track be-ing a different track I have to go with you on that. I see that the drive wheel or gear wheel as you call it is nothing like the one on the box cover it’s the same as all M113 to me.
But I am going to get the othere AFV tracks but not that drive wheel as I’m building my model based on the photos I have not on what I can’t see. If you want you can go take some pics of the ADATS that is at your base so I can see the frount drive wheel on the one you have seen. Then I will have a new up to date photo to go by. As for a M2A2 Medic I didn’t mean I wanted to build one or that I have seen one I was going in to a new direction and talk about doing my next Bradley like your and using your images of your Bradley and M113 Medic to help me out on the two different builds. See the interior work on you bradley may be spot on but you must remember that not all of us have a chance to see the interior of the turret on a bradley like you so we may from time to time get thing’s rong. An some time our friends get thing’s rong it’s not a hit at you man. An one more thing as the the different trasks, I never said or mint that the T130E1 has two type just two different pads
So I ask once again can you change the type or shape of the Rubber Pad on the T130E1 track the answer should be a simple yes or BOLD NO!! that’s all any way at this time I’m going to order up the AFV YPR765 Tracks for my ADATS build to be safe, but I’m not going to change out the front drive wheel. Even if the images that I have shown are a little fuzzy you still can tell that the drive wheel is the same as most basic M113s. So the drive wheel stays.
OK on to the IDF Ambulance and the interior beds I see and may it’s just that the images in your album are fuzzy but it look’s like the bed or strechers are on round rods not square tubing. As for what the Israelis use they some time change parts to sute there needs. On the old units the cots are on round tubbing but on the newer ones it’s said that they are on square tubbing. As for building the two teared racks I can do that and I know there’s not resin kit out there for that. I was talking about a resin set for the OIF Bredley and not having to build the turret basket. Once again two different builds. I brought up the othere builds because I have your attention and I thought I would just bring it up and not E-Mail you on it.
As for building the ADATS version on a Bradley I do plan on do that as well. but not the AMEV.
Thank you Heavy, so can we all look to you to get some new interior photos of bradley or what ever to help some of us out?
Sorry, still disagree with you on the tracks. You can change the track pads when they wear down, however, the metal track shoe has two metal posts where the angled part on the pad is to seat it in. A square pad won’t fit them.
Sorry, no pics of the ADATs. The US doesn’t use them. I belive only Canada uses them.
Unfortunately, there are no Bradleys where I am at now. So no pics to take.
Also, If you do some research you can find all sorts of interior pics of Brads, M113s, etc. With the internet and these forums, with people who use this stuff all the time, you can really do a nice model and be accurate w/it.
If you separate your thought into better paragraphs, they are easier to follow as well. Jumbling them together makes it hard to follow along.
Good luck.