Sometimes the Germans make me ill - (discussion about a diorama)

Modeling Subjects Armor
1

I posted a link to the “Grandpa, what did you do in war?” - diorama (i found here) in our german forum. The first replays were good, appreciating the idea and the dio in itself. But then one guy wrote it’s ill to build such stuff and this has nothing to do with modeling. And after this a discussion about armour models, showing dead or wound bodies in dios begun and is running just now.
Maybe such things could happen in this forum, but what definitiv not will happen here (I think) is the removal of such topics because of the fear of the forums webmaster (and another members) that other people could think all armour modelers are glorifying war or are sympathic to the neo nazis.
Unimportant which opinion one has, a discussion about such themes is not welcome and you risk removal of the topic or a kick off the forum.
This is why I’m feeling good in this forum: you guys feel free to speak about a lot of stuff besides armour modeling - AND : in common you would raise the reputation of the Americans because what I’ve been reading until now is (most) better than what the people think about you.

OK lets have a look wether the topic is still there …

P.S. Will try to put some pics of my Tiger on my site tonight.

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Looking forward to the pics of the Tiger, PP.

So you’re saying that on another forum, images of dead soldiers are depicted in dioramas, and it was removed for questionable content? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a diorama with casualties on it on this forum. Anyone?

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There have been several. The one that comes to mind is the D-Day diorama that included everything from the landing craft (with waterspout explosions) up the beach to a bunker. That dio had several casualties, if I recall correctly.

I don’t see a problem with it at all.

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Hmmm, ok – I may not have seen it because many images here are posted on free webhosts, and I am blocked to access to those here at work.

Here’s a question – how would you guys feel about a diorama of Das Reich in France, in the process of massacring villagers in retaliation for resistance attacks, like at Oradour?

Or maybe the massacre of prisoners from the 285th by the 1st SS at Malmedy? Russian soldiers raping German girls in East Prussia? The Mi Lai massacre?

Is the line drawn at soldiers in uniform, killed in battle? In what condition can the corpses be in? Some corpses are in really bad shape, either due to battle damage or to decay.

Come to think of it, I think Verlinden makes dead livestock, a common sight in European wars, don’t they?

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Yeah Larry I remember that dio. It was a large one as I recall. Its funny My father and I had a disscusion about this last nite. My feeling is that death is apart of war. Now does that mean we should build a Dio or a model that is full of dead guys with blood and guts? Of course not that would be, as far as I am concerned , glorifiying war. Now the occaisional dead soilder in a dio is not a bad thing as long is its done tastefully. Now I also remeber this same topic eing discussed here previosly and my statements were about the same as everyone elses.

I will close by saying this to those of you that feel we should not read about or teach our kids about our past wars.

“Those who chose to ignore it are condemned to repeat it.”

Now I will get off my soap box.

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Is that why we model? To teach our kids about past wars?

I don’t know how I feel about his, though I do recall a big stink at a show a few years ago when someone depicted a dead soldier laying on cobblestones near a German armored car in a pool of blood on a diorama.

I choose not to have an opinion. [:)]

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This is a subjective topic, if anything.
A dio can be anything in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I don’t think that removal of ANY kind of diorama (well, almost any) from this forum is just wrong. As long as the diorama is done tastefully, I don’t see a problem. It really is nothing more than a few pieces of plastic and a base with some paint. The idea that people don’t want to look at this is absurd. If you don’t want to look at it, don’t, but don’t force such things to be removed.

Good point. I don’t see anything with dio’s representing these horrors. The fact is, they DID happen, and we’re exposed to so much violence in much more gruesome forms in all sorts of other entertainment, so why should we be censored for a simple diorama?

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My feelings on this are if you choose to be accurate in your portrayals in your Dio’s then sometimes that happens. As for be tasteful, does that mean just over do it for the shock or accurately represent a horrific scene that had happened. What does Shock mean? If you are just doing it for blood and guts to watch people to turn green, thats more of a hollywood dio. But, if it is something that really happened it should be shown by all means and not be censored. If people try to censor it they are in the wrong place and should move on.

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Is this hobby an art? If it is, is censorship appropriate? Or is it more technical in nature? I don’t really know, I think it is OK to depict casualties as long as it can’t be construed as obscene.

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Panzerpabst,

I think you missed the root of you problem, you are dealing with two differnt cultures. One forum is German the other American (more like internationl but Germany is unique)… two very differnt cultures… (Trust me I know, I am an American living in Germany). Germany has still not come to terms with her actions in WWII, and to this day Germany still carrys that guilt… I know this personally if you ask most Germans something about WWII or the Holocost you will get an apology in reply. Think about it [sigh] .
I think that if the dio had shown a wounded German, the response might have been differnt, but in this case the wounded guy was an American… you know the good guys.
The response to me is typical…

Herr Gray

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This is a hobby. We can build the models to depict actual vehicles or battles, and yet at the same time we build them to look like anything we want. We can put King Tiger Tank turrets on M1 Abrams hulls if we so choose.

When it comes to wounded or dead it should be done tastefully. In htere lies the catch. What is tasteful? Everyone has an opinion on this. What I think is ok the next person may find it offensive.

We do this because we like to. For some people it is a history lesson on a particular vehicle, unit, or battle. Most of us spend hours researching on the net , in books or talking to veterans when we start to build a new kit.

Remember this…If we are not carefull history will repeat itself with devastating conscequences.

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I have seen a well presented dio of grerman soldiers and some jews that were about to be executed. There were no fatalities shown but only the expectation that they were about to happen. There were alot of very harsh comments towrds the builder for doing such a dio. My feeling toward it was that the mood it was presenting was one of rememberance of what had happened. It was nothing close to what I have seen in movies about what happened to the Jewish and yet it recieved a harsh critisim, I think what we do is history and that the only difference between our work and that of a combat photographer is that you can walk around and see all angles of our finished product.

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The thought of questioning the content of a war diorama is a joke! No one should be able to cover up what happens in war. It should be simple, if you build a war scene, casualties are allowed. I mean, it’s not like people don’t know there is death during wars. It’s stupid not to face the fact that people die all the time in war, and it’s even dumber when people build a diorama suited to peoples feedback[censored]. People who complain about death and gore in dioramas obviously don’t know much about war. It’s not wonderful. If you go to war… you will see people die and you might die to! How could someone hide that!!!

I just finished a compact battle scene where three people have died. One is seen being thrown back from a shot to the chest. Think of how lame dioramas are when all the figures are pointing guns but no fire is hitting anything. It’s not lazer tag!! It’s supposed to be real! In a museum in Calgary, I saw a diorama of WW1 in the trenches in which I recalled seeing at least 100 dead soldiers from both sides rotting in trenches, shells going off, people thrown from the blast, and blood everywhere. That’s the reality of war. Not a bunch on un-scarred soldiers standing upright, pointing rifles gloriously in valour.

When you design a diorama remember, war can’t be censored[X-)].

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I think it is distasteful to use excessive casualties in adiorama. In no way does this glorify war. It is representing a significant event in the past. I model armor because I admire the craftsmanship on the tank.

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We’ve certainly been here before.
I again assert that we build for ourselves. If I want to build 2 airliners smacking into the WTC I will. I’ll also face any objection that occurs if I choose to submit it for public scrutiny. Show me in any art form where there is no controversy. I know there are some on this forum that refuse to build SS subject matter, Japanese subject matter, Confederate subject matter, and any other subject that may cause some controversy for someone. That is thier burden not ours.

Taste and aesthetic are individual appreciations and are understood by their owners. It is not for anyone to judge whether its wrong or right, only if it caters to their individual emotions, aesthetics and criteria. Simply, either they like it or they don’t…and then they can move on.

I feel bad for those that have to carry the burden of guilt for previous generations.

We can as part of our presentation to others make imagination spark a more emotional reaction simply by assumed violence rather than displayed violence. I think the example I used previously was you can be shocked by a photo of a human being turned into so much tenderized meat and have a shock value that leaves nothing, people will disassociate themselves from the violence and turn on certain psycological defenses. Or you can see a photo of a soldier looking into the lens with a 1000 yard stare, physicly exhausted and wonder and let imagination imply the horrors that he’s seen.

Back in the 70’s, Larry Flint did a great layout in Hustler magazine as to what was obscene. He faced it with a what the legal system at the time considered obscene with his magazine and then showed some of the most horrific combat photography from VietNam that I’ve ever seen. Commenting on “this is obsenity.”

As was said. Art is personal.

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Until now the topic is’nt removed and the discussion is going on ( alike here I see :slight_smile:
It’s hard to draw a sharp line beetween blur things, this dio is well done in any way. If the creator of this dio would show ripped off heads or such stuff it would turn into distastefulness. This dio has a perfect balance.

P.S. My Tiger pics are online : www.boorad.de click on the tank icon

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I might call it a choice rather than a burden. After all, all of us have things we have no problem building, and things we don’t want to build.

Well yeah, but at the same time you’re not suggesting that anything goes here, are you? How about graphic sculpts of people having sex? I think the point of PP’s original post is to say that he doesn’t like the fact that dioramas including casualties were censored from a German board. That leaves open some room for an interesting discussion of regulation of content. In the end, I doubt that any of us really feels that absolutely anything is ok to post in a public forum like FSM.

I must admit that I find that to be a perplexing statement. If I complain about a graphic painting of a rape, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t know what rape is. It means I find the rape to be disgusting and depressing, and the image offensive. You can certainly portray soldiers and weapons systems without having to portray casualties. It’s not necessarily part of depictions of war. (Note that I’m not taking sides, I just don’t agree with that assertion.)

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Its a matter of taste; to dwell on graphic violence accomplishes nothing,
yet to establish arbitrary critiria is also self defeating. I don’t build dioramas,
but I do enjoy them,& like any form of art, there will always be controversy.

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I guess it all depends on what the dio is trying to depict. The heat of the battle, with one side gaining ground over another, there will always be dead or dying to depict that action. I remember seeing a magnificent Zulu wars dio many years ago. It depicted the Zulu warriors attacking the British at Rourke’s Drift. No way that could have been done without dead and dying people. The dio was a tribute to the courage and honour of the VC winners and also the zulu warriors, not a tribute to the slaughter of people on both sides. There were no mutilated corpses, etc, So I guess you can say it was ‘tastefully’ done.

I have seen many other dio’s with dead soldiers, WW1 trench scenes, teutonic knight battles, etc and a Apart from the ‘Monty Python and the Holy Grail’ Black Night dio (by nature more comic than gory), all were tastefully done without missing limbs etc.

Most Armour builders do not depict action scenes, as it is very difficult to represent dirt and dust thrown up by advancing vehicles. Our figures are generally crew at rest or the like or crews firing at some distant ‘enemy’. Same goes for the flyboys and ship builders. This is really an area for figure guys and some armour dio guys.

In reality you are going to see far more blood and guts on the ‘big screen’ or the TV than you will ever see in a military dio. It is the theme behind the dio that is the point of contention not the figure content. As Larry has pointed out, there are some things that moral standards will not allow most human beings to accept such as Malmedy, etc.

I have no concerns with modelling SS vehicles, etc; They are a part of history. However, I would not consider doing anything other than representation of the vehicle, not the principles behind the organisation or the ruthless tactics employed by some of its members. If I was really that concerned about Facism or National Socialism I would not do a German vehicle at all. I depict history not politics. The same thing could be said for modelling the Japanese vehicles or figures - just ask an Aussie Digger about Changi prison or any of the slave labour camps. Jjust remember though, the Allies were not squeaky clean either. As they say "history is written by the victorious’.

All people have their own views and some will take a more conservative view than others. Tasteful, is a word defined only by the individual viewer. Personally, dismembered bodies serve no purpose other than a ‘wow’ factor I can do without. But a dead soldier in a dio, tells a story, and a message we should all remember - War is hell. Yes we model vehicles of war, yes we depict scenes from history, but do we want to depict attrocities? I think not.

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Sure Larry, I agree with you. Once in a public forum it becomes subject to public scrutiny and the publics judgement of it. Also subject to the publics judgement of it and their acceptance or disapproval of it. This includes its removal as a result. A chance we take and something I’m willing to accept. In a venue such as a forum, show etc, we are not always protected by what we feel to be 1st ammendment rights. Societal moire determines that and if society overwhelmingly does not take to it then so be it. Away it goes.

As for what society accepts that is truly capricious. As you’ve said the imagery of rape is violent and distasteful. Yet the painting Rape of the Sabine women is consiered to be a masterpiece of art history. So what is considered art is subjective as well as fickle.

I personaly do not like to use violent imagery. (My imagination is brutal enough, I don’t needed modeled in 3d) I like implied concepts. Letting the viewer decide and making his own conclusion.