I’m aware that Luftwaffe colors will always be a source of controversy. Afterall, how does one extract an accurate color shade from a black and white photo. There’s much writen on this subject, and many different opinions.
I normally use MM enamels, simply cause they’re readily available. Accuracy? Who’s to say. On my latest project, 109G-4 trop, I’ve aquired some AeroMaster paints which I think are no longer available. After comparing MM and Aeromaster, there’s a huge difference in shades.
Does anybody have any experience with this paint, or any opinions on color accuracy? Particularly, RLM 79 Sand Gelb. I think I remember reading some good things about this stuff.
Aeromaster has been around for a number of years, I can remember buying their lacquers as far back as 1985 or so…
A long time ago, when I was a die-hard aircraft modeler, I compiled a chip chart of colors using Humbrol (the old formulas, when RLM 02 was RLM 02), Aeromaster, and the new-at-the-time Model Master colors.
I found the same thing you did, there’s lots of variations between colors and manufacturers. So…I went out and bought some color chips, and I also compared the colors to the plates found in Merrick’s Luftwaffe colors book and the Monogram Painting guides. I also stumbled on some 1929 Munsell codes for the Luftwaffe colors (Munsell is a color system like Meuthen and Federal Standard. Not the same methodology, but they standardized a system).
Anyway… what I found was that some colors were spot on, others weren’t, across the board. Aeromaster RLM02 was terrible, Tamiya’s was very close to the Munsell codes and Merrick chips, but not the Monogram chips, etc…
Now that I’ve babbled for 10 minutes…I have a large number of Aeromaster paint in my inventory, about 100 bottles. My standard rule is that if I use Aeromaster colors on a model, I try not to use any other brands. This ensures that if nothing else, the consistency of the contrast is at least the same.
In the Aeromaster lacquer line (and the old Compucolor enamel line too), I remember there were two RLM79 colors. One was labelled RLM 79 and the other RM79a.
The logic, if I remember correctly, was because of JG 26’s arrival in North Africa. Apparently, German RLM 79 wasn’t available, so they used stocks of Italian paint instead.
Now… that being said, I don’t know if there’s any historical creedance in that fact at all. I’ve never bothered to research it because it simply doesn’t interest me, but maybe someone else will chime in to verify this was the case.
If I remember correctly, the unit transferred to North Africa before RLM 79/RLM80 officially existed. You might want to factor that into your decision too.
I believe that Aeromaster advertises the paints as “toned down”, not to be confused with “scale lightened”. This probably accounts for some difference in the color. I just bought some Aeromaster recently but haven’t had a chance to use it yet.
RLM 79 is interesting, as Jeff noted LW aircraft in the early part of the North African campaign could have been painted with Italian paint rather than RLM. They certainly appear to be a lighter color than aircraft that arrived in theater later with factory applied paint.
I usually custom mix to get a color I’m happy with, being a 1/72 guy a lot of stuff is just too dark straight out of the bottle for smaller scales.
Two RLM 79’s. Mmmmm…the markings I want to use are from EagleCals #48. The aircraft is “Black 1” Bf 109 G-4 Trop 8/JG 53 1943 San Pietro, Sicily. EagleCals is calling for RLM 79 “II.” Could that be the Italian color? Model master lists only one RLM 79, but they do list an Italian sand. Also, they call for the undersurfaces RLM 76, possibly 78. What should I use. Does it really matter? This is all very interesting, but also confusing. Maybe I’m making to big a deal out of this, but I would like to make an effort for some accuracy. I’ve already sprayed the fuselage with 78 under 79, and to me, it looks pretty strange. Jeff, you mentioned the importance of using the same brand of paint, but unfortunately, I didn’t have RLM 78 in Aeromaster so I used MM for that. Could this be the reason for it looking weird? Bottom line, I’m not liking what I see. It’s certainly not too late to repaint and make a change. I’m striving for reasonable confidence that I’ve used the correct colors.
This is my first 109 build, and obviously I know very little about Luftwaffe aircraft, but this process is defintely opening my eyes. It’s mind boggling the different variations for not only 109 colors, but a slew of other issues like type of wheels, antennaes, bulges/no bulges, armour, etc. etc.etc. AAAaaaah!!
Any thoughts from any Luftwaffe experts would be greatly appreciated.
I did a bit of research a while back on Luftwaffe camo for a club demo,and found a few interesting thing. 1-just because it was an official document doesn’t mean it was recieved in a timely manner or followed to the letter.2-field applications ruined any fantasy a modeler had of matching a paint chip! The variations in stocks of paint,methods of thinning the paint,along with times and conditions of applications were too numerous.3-Another basic rule of paint(cars,planes,trains,etc.,real or otherwise) -two bottles or cans of paint will never match exactly,even if they were mixed in the same batch. Moisture and temperature variations at different times are enough to effect the shade.
I’ve had many discussions about this particular subject,and the people I’ve talked with and myself have always come to the same conclusion-if you’re in the ballpark, you’ll be alright.
We also have a spoken agreement within the club-we see you at our contest with a paint chip and you’re critisizing the models-you WILL be removed.
RLM 78 is definitely correct to use with RLM 79, it is bluer than than RLM 76, which is kind of a light blue-gray that was used for under sides in the Northern ETO (athough some F’s were delivered to Russia with 78/79 but that’s another story).
I’m not sure what RLM 79 “II” is. I would suspect that by 1943 Italian sand would not be in use. I believe this was primarily field applied to the first JG 27 aircraft to arrive in Africa.
You could email Jerry Crandall at Eaglecals, he’s usually real helpful and incredibly knowledgable on these matters.
I have Aeromaster and MM in these colors and they look pretty good to me. You might find someone hyper-critical who takes exception with the colors, but some people will find things wrong no matter what anyway, so I wouldn’t sweat it too much.
Welcome to the wonderful world of 109’s, careful though, they’re addictive! [}:)]
It’s nice to see the general concensus is “do what looks good.” A far cry from some camouflage discussions I’ve taken part in.
I would think by 1943 that the Luftwaffe was using German colors and not Italian mixes. Whether RLM 79 “I” or “II” is equal to the Aeromaster RLM79 and 79a, who knows for sure. Until we start comparing color chips and getting finicky about it, I don’t think most will notice, especially if you’re weathering.
I have to agree (this is so not like me) about the paint mixes, etc., all contributing to variances in paint schemes.
As for the colors not looking right, it could be because of two different companies’ interpretations of two different colors.
I normally build ships, and I won’t use Model Master Haze Gray with Polly Scale Ocean Gray, simply because neither color is perfect and they simply don’t look right together. However, when I use matching colors (MM Haze and Ocean gray, for example) they look fine.
If you need Aeromaster RLM 78, let me know, I think I have a bottle. It’s lacquer - and with my wife’s asthma, I can’t spray them anymore.
Wow, this is great. I certainly appreciate all the input on this subject. This is why I love the FSM forum. I suspect that my problem could be simply the fact that I’ve used two different manufactures products. I’m not really sure, it might be fine the way it is, then again, to me, it looks a little strange. Please forgive me if I’m going in circles, but this is a special build that I want to try to get right and I guess I’m just looking for some confidence that the colors are at least close. I had a guy at a recent contest that swore the prop was wrong on a kit supplied Trimaster 190 D9. WHAT!! I certainly don’t want that guy to come up and say…“Those aren"t the right colors.”
Interestingly enough, I have already e-mailed Mr. Crandall. Hopefully, if he’s not too busy, he can shed some light on the subject. If anyone can help me, he can.
Thanks again to all for the excellent input. You guys are the greatest!
Jeff…I don’t know if I’ll need that paint yet, but if I do, you’ll certainly have my gratitude. Thank you for the offer.
I’ve decided to show a pic of what I’ve done so far. I haven’t gone any further than the fuse. The weird brown spot in the middle is the over/sprayed numbers.
Looks good so far, Jerry…and I have to echo what some have said here. I’ve built a lot of Luftwaffe aircraft, but when painting them, I stuck to one paint manufacturer for the entire job because of the differences in like shades from brand to brand mentioned here. So many times a color can appear to take on a different hue when seen along side another color, so as where it might look OK on its own, it looks out of place once applied next to a different camo color.
Well yes Jerry, quite frankly… you are nuts[;)]. Just like the rest of us.[:D] As stated… dirt… field applications, fading, mixing 2 different batches… if it looks good… go with it. Who’s gonna tell you your wrong?
During my research I saw a bomber (can’t remember if it was an He-111,Do-17,or Ju-88) in Africa that had been converted to a general’s transport, and looked like it had been painted Desert Pink! The printing process may have made it too pink,but I think Miss Piggy would’ve approved!
The Gunze acrylics range also have 2 RLM79s, one of which is much darker than the other.
Having looked at the colour sample on the IPMS Stockholm site, the RLM 79a, FS30219 is the same as Italian hazlenut brown, which would tally with the use of Italian paint stocks thgeory. It’s also referred to as Sandbraun, rather than Sandgelb as the RLM79 is.
As everyone has said, just go with what looks right.
I didn’t know that…cool, so my conspiracy theory was plausible after all!!
Jerry, in looking at the photo you shot (I know, monitors, gammas, colors, etc), I don’t think it looks that far off. It was about what I expected to see from a RLM 78/79 scheme. Worst case, if you don’t like the contrast between the colors when you’re done, you can always lighten or darken it with a wash or a filter.
Thanks Jeff. I guess what concerned me, was that the 79 looked a little on the pink side. One of my club members, who’s a Luftwaffe Guru, looked at it last night and said it was spot on. He also reminded me that clear coats and weathering, will change the overall look as well. I’ve never finished a 109 before let alone a trop scheme. I must say…the combination of colors is…well…not very attractive. Nonetheless, that’s what they used, and that’s what I used.
