RF-4C Phantom - Tan Son Nhut, 1966

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
1

Hello everybody!
I want to apologize in advance if I’ll talk about something that has been already clarified in another thread. If this will be true, please give me the proper indications to read the topics that can solve my doubts. Thank you very much indeed!

Well……
I’m planning to reproduce a 1/72 scale RF-4C-26-MC Phantom II of 460th TRW 12th TRS wearing SEA camouflage and flying in Sep-Oct 1966 from Tan Son Nhut USAF Base, South Vietnam: I’m interested especially in the aircraft serial 65-0885.
My doubts are about:

  1. WSO cockpit right end side console;
  2. Forward oblique camera station (just behind the radar cone);
  3. Tail end cone (I’m not sure I indicated it in the proper way, but I’ll try to be more clear in the following lines).

Starting from #1, my question is:
Was on the right side console of the “back seater” a radar control handle/stick?
My “Internet” navigations let me found those three images indicating either of the two possible aswers: “NO” in the first and second one

http://lzswy3486.blo…00828112821602/

http://www.network54…l+RF4-C+del+EdA

“YES” in the third one

http://forum.largesc…pic=33262&st=15

It may be possible that the first two pictures are from an old serial/not updated aircraft and the third picture is from a later serial/updated aircraft……But I’m not sure.

Doubt #2:
On both sides of the forward oblique camera window there are two “black bulbs”

http://www.aircraftr…t2/RF4Cnose.jpg

What are those bulbs for? Were those black painted for a special reason? Were those ALWAYS painted in black?
It’s easy to say they are ECM fairings: but I’m not sure.
Anyway, were those bulbs on the oblique camera station’s sides of the RF-4C flying in 1966 too?
This Vietnam era picture would aswer “NO”!

http://www.quincyvet…and%20plane.jpg

But I’m not sure.

Doubt #3:
Here is the “tail end cone”

http://www.flickr.co…in/photostream/

http://www.cybermode…_rf-4c_11.shtml

Once again: what are those two “black bulbs” for? Are them “radar warning receivers”?
And again the same questions that you read about “doubt #2”.
Plus a final one: what is the semicircular small “panel” just below the bulbs? I have no idea.

I hope to clearly explained what I’m asking to know.
Thank you very much for the info that anybody who wants to help me will write in this topic.
Pictures of the aircraft I would like to reproduce or of her Squadron mates are much more than welcome.

Best regards.
Bye!
CARLO

2

Here is some information that should help you out a bit.

  1. The RF-4C was equipped with a different radar than the F-4C. Instead of an Air to Air combat radar, it had a smaller radar for ground mapping. As such, it had no need for a hand controller to adjust its various modes. While I can not say yes or no for sure, it seems very unlikely that the RF-4C had the controller.

2.&3. those “bulbs” are radar warning receivers, part of the aircraft’s defensive electronic suite. Early RF-4s did not have them as built. They were installed as the Vietnam air war became more intense in the electronic areas and were later factory installed as well as field or depot fitted to older surviving Phantoms. I have not yet been able to find the time frame that the system was installed on older aircraft, but I would venture to say that in late 1966, it would be less likely. Photos of late 1965 show that they are not there.

Image

RF-4C Tan Son Nhut 1967

tsn8

RF-4C rear cockpit

Attached Image

Attached Image

3

Hi, Stik. I may be mistaken, but that cockpit shot looks like the front office.

Glenn

4

You might be right… hard to tell, but the site I pulled the pics from claimed that it was the rear RF-4C cockpit…

5

Hear is the RF-4C rear cockpit layout from the flight manual. There is no right side stick, it is to control the fire control radar in the armed Phantoms.

6

Hello guys!

And thank you very much indeed for your replies.

One special help you gave me is the rear cockpit layout: well done “jeaton01”!!! I hardly searched on the web for something like that and I couldn’t find anything good for me. Thanks again! Good shot!

About the cockpit pictures that “stikpusher” attached, let me say that I really believe those are from the PILOT’s seat. Sorry to say “stikpusher”, but the front panel of the first cockpit image of yours shows a layout really different form what you can see into the file “jeaton01” attached. Just a couple of notes, if you don’t mind:

  1. the vertical front panel of the “back seater” lacks of the two rounded screens in the upper part (in your picture they are red- on the left - and black- on the right);

  2. if you compare the switches visible into your right side panel picture with the ones on the “jeaton01” 's file, you’ll probably see a really different layout.

Two more things I would like to say to “stikpusher”.

About the time when the RWR bulbs where fitted onto the RF-4C. What you wrote is really interesting but one of the pictures I posted (http://www.quincyvet…and%20plane.jpg) has been for sure taken in 1968 - at least that’s what the site holder or/and original picture owner wrote. Because the image shows a copper-like flat cover on the place where the two black bulbs were later mounted, it’s easy to believe that the “RWR fitting period” started a little bit late than in the 1966. You know that I would like to reproduce an aircraft flying in Sep-Oct 1966, so this detail is very important for me. Do you have any kind of reference about this detail? For example: news from somebody; witness’ reports from people who serviced in Vietnam; etc.

And then: do you know for sure the age when the “AC 895” RF-4C’s picture has been taken? I find it very interesting, because the tail code of the airplane I want to reproduce is “AC”, that distinguished the 12th TRS birds during the Vietnam War.

Thanks again for your kind help.

I really appreciate.

Have a nice day!

7

I found this site with good info on the RF-4C

http://www.garygwright.com/index_files/TributeToGaryWrightByPeterStigt.htm

Doing some searches on what was listed there for ECM/RHAW gear, those blisters near the nose cameras were originally the AN/ALR-17 system which would locate hostile radars and work with the cameras to photograph and designate them. scroll down on the link below for that info on the ALR-17

http://www.airvectors.net/avf4_1.html

Those are probably what the copper flat plates are in the photo from 1968. I have yet to find out what year that system was installed.

The tail blisters and the blisters on the nose bulges I do beleive are a later RHAW system, but I have no proof of that yet aside from the fact that they appear on more recent Phantoms and not just RF-4Cs. I believe that it is the ALR-46 system based off of what I have been able to find so far. I will have to look over my Phantom books better for more info on those.

8

I also found this image of a 12th TRS RF-4C at Tan Son Nhut. An educated SWAG says this is late 1965 or 1966 as tail codes have not yet been applied, but the SEA camo has been. Tail Codes did not appear before 1967. So prior to that on camo birds it was USAF and the serial number in black as seen here. It also has the flat faced ALR-17 type antennas. While this may or may not be the RF-4 you are looking for, (I can not quite read the serial number, either 885 or 895) it is probably as close as you will find- same squadron and time frame wise.

9

It’s times like these when I really miss Berny’s input… [:'(]

10

If you take a look at Jake Melampy’s book, "Modern Phantom Guide, you will clearly see a radar antenna control stick on the starboard console of the rear pit of a RF-4C. Bottom page 105.

11

Phil, we definately could use Berny’s expertise lately with all the Vietnam aircraft builds going on now.

F-4, Perhaps you could scan and post that image for those who do not have access to that book.

I did a bit more research on those tail bumps last night before bed. On the EF-4C, a slightly later (1968 onwards) contemporary of the RF-4C, those are Radar Warning Receivers of the ALR-46 system. I still can find any dates on systems installed or any photos of the ALR-31 system mounted or displayed.

Here are the components of the ALR-46

12

Thank you very much for your replies, guys!

“stikpusher”: I really didn’t know that tail codes on SEA camo aircrafts did not appear before 1967. I believed tail codes were painted on the “in theatre” aircraft fins since the birds reached the assignement Air Base. And I believed that the reason why it was possible to see some uncoded camo aircrafts was due to lack of the right time for Air Force technicians to paint the codes while the preminent need was to get the “bird” ready for completing dozens of urgent missions in a very short time.

“f-4phantom”: unfortunately I don’t have the book you are referring to, so I can’t check what you wrote. Anyway I believe in your words and this is not my matter. Let me specify that connecting to the third link of my first post above you’ll see exactly an image that confirms your words.

While my real doubt is: was that hand control installed in the aircrafts flying in 1966? The image of rear cockpit layout that John posted before would aswer “NO”. And frankly this is what I believe. It’s possible that the hand control has been installed later on all the RF-4C still flying, maybe even after or nearly to the end of Vietnam War. As a proof: your book’s title is “MODERN Phantom Guide”. I hope to have been clear!

“Phil_H”: I’m sorry to ask, but my curiosity is great. Who’s Bernie? Do I know him?

Have a nice day!

CARLO

13

Yes, the codes were applied at the base of the unit in theater, and were changed when an aircraft changed units. The two letter Tail Codes were directed to be applied by PACAF (Pacific Air Force) HQ to PACAF units (most USAF aircraft except tankers, B-52s, and certain transports, in SEA fell under their jurisdiction) around December 1966. My copy of Vietnam Air War Debrief states that around 2 December 1966 is when they began to appear on aircraft. Most units applied the two letter codes with the first letter denoting the wing, and the second letter denoting the squadron. The 366th TFW at DaNang went a different route- each squadron had a different first letter, A, B, and C, and the individual aircraft was assigned the second letter, often based on the pilot’s last name. Col Titus had AT, Col Blesse BB, Maj Janka AJ, etc. Eventually markings would be standardized Air Force wide with the same tail code letters for an entire wing.

14

Stick,

I’d love to post the pictures but they are copy written by Jake. He scans the forums at times. Maybe he’ll oblige.

15

Carlo,

The book doesn’t give a date of the photo so you could be right about it being absent in 1966.

16

Copyrights on US government developed equipment are BS. That stuff is the property of the US taxpayer.

17

Stick,

That’s true but the pictures taken by the author are protected and Jake Melampy did take the pictures.

18

Many thanks again “stikpusher” and “f-4phantom” for your replies!

Please don’t mind too much about the Jake Melampy’s picture.

My doubt about the “back seater” radar hand control has been dissolved by the posts in this topic.

I would be pleased by somebody’s indications about the right dimensions of the 1966 SEA camo aircraft fin word “USAF” and numbers “WHATEVER SERIAL NUMBER”.

Thank you!

Best regards.

CARLO

19

I pulled out a ruler and measured the decals that I have for such markings. They are 1/8" in height which in 1/48 scales out to 6" actual size. They would be in the standard USAF stencil type block letters with angle corners.

20

THANKS AGAIN “STICKPUSHER”!

The details you kindly wrote have been a very good base for my decals searching and making!

Regards.

CARLO