can any of you fellas help me out with some ‘DIFINITIVE’ Sherman references?-- a Sherman bible if you will.-- I am looking mostly for later model stuff (late '43 and upwards) but still in WWII-- these would probably be varients with the horizontal volute spring suspension as oppossed to the vvss – I have already ‘googled’ all over the place but I would like to get some great reference books – something akin to ‘panzertracks’ except for the Sherm-- know what I mean?-- thanks guys[:)]------tread[8D]
Hunnicutt’s “Sherman” book is the bible. The upcoming MMIR “Son of Sherman” should be pretty definitive as it contains tons of recent research including turrets and stuff. It’s the ne edition of the MMIR Guide to the SHerman Universe which is OOP and pricey on eBay.
A good website is this: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/
‘And of course, feel free to post here or on Missing Lynx’ Allied board. What specifically do you want to know about HVSS Shermans? Go ahead and shoot.
hey Roy[:)]-- thanks for the quick responce-- I am going to order the ‘Hunnicutt’ book ASAP(like tonight or tomorrow!)-- some of my specific questions are – was the applique armor used on these later models?–so far i think not–which is the correct tracks–t-66 or t-84(or either?)–on the rear deck over the engine was it steel panels with no vents, or vented with a grill structure? —105 mm-- 75mm-- 76mm-- so many choices!–I am sure the book will answere my Qs-- thanks so much— tread[8D] edit —holy crap! I just ordered that book -------$162.50 on Amazon-- they have copies for sale all the way up to $1,198.00 --must be a good book![(-D][#toast]
The hull applique was used on dry ammo stowage hulls. Of the “late” hulls only the late M4A2s with 75mm turrets had the applique because they were the only late hulls with dry stowage. All 76mm gun tanks had wet stowage and the later M4A3 75mm tanks had wet, as well.
Either T-66 or T-84 were used. Regarding the engine deck, it depends on the variant. The different ones had different engine configurations so had specific differences.
You need to understand that the differences are specific to the main variants of Sherman. The main subvariants are delineated by their engine packs (radials (M4, M4A1), Ford (M4A3), Chrysler Multibank(M4A4), GM Twin Diesels (m4A2) and hull types (welded and cast and composite). Many of the variants carried the different armaments.
Below is a write up I have on the currently inactive www.usarmymodels.com
Sherman Variants by Roy Chow
(all kit suggestions in 1/35 scale)
M4 with 75mm gun, radial engine
Had both hooded and direct vision driver/assistant driver’s stations. Came with M3 suspension, and later horizontal arm VVS suspension (Tamiya M4 early production kit or old MP Models conversion – currently the most accurate M4 you can make uses the DML M4A2 Sherman III with the Formations M4 conversion set). Sparingly used as basis for 17pdr Firefly. Had later 47-degree hull and large hatches for M4 105mm howitzer tank (TWS, Formations or Armoured Brigade).
M4 Composite (or Hybrid)
Radial engine hull that was hybrid of cast nose (with large hatches) and welded rear body. Later war production. Was armed as 75mm gun tank and 17pdr Firefly. Usually upswept VVS suspension. CMD has nice conversion or get the hard-to-find DML kit – avoid Verlinden Composite hull.
M4A1, early
Small hatches, some M3 suspension, some VVS suspension. 75mm armed. Originally built with direct vision for driver/assistant, later dropped. Later ones had cast in appliqué armor on sides. Radial engine. The recent Tasca M4A1 surpasses the older DML kit.
M4A1, late
Large drivers’ hatches. Up-gunned with T23 turret (76mm). No appliqué armor. The classic Italeri kit builds into this one but the recent DML “Operation Cobra” kit is super. Supposedly HVSS versions were used in WW2 but no historical photos from that time have shown up.
M4A2
Variations in frontal armor, weaponry (75mm and 76mm), dry (appliqué) or wet stowage (no appliqué). Twin diesel engine. Used mostly by Commonwealth allies and Soviets; some U.S.M.C. usage. Later ones (including all T23 76mm turreted ones) had the later 47-degree hull and large hatches. DML has their Sherman III (with cast hood) and “Tarawa” Sherman (welded hood) which will allow many possibilites and surpass all the other resin ones (except for the superior DV M4A2 by CMD). DML and Academy have nice late M4A2 kits available too.
M4A3, early, dry stowage
Used mostly stateside for training but later some appear in NWE as replacement vehicles. Small hatch, appliqué armor, 75mm gun tanks. Horizontal VVS. (MP Models made an out-of-production conversion hull.)
M4A3, late
Very common later war usage (fall 1944 to end of war). Tamiya depicts the 75mm gun tank and the 105mm howitzer tank. No appliqué on either (despite what the Tamiya directions imply). Both have upswept VVS. Has the later 47-degree hull and large hatches. Turret should have cheek bulge generally. Many also mounted later HVSS. DML and Academy have M4A3 (105) with HVSS kits. Formations has released an extrememely detailed M4A3 upper hull.
M4A3 76mm, wet stowage
Same chassis as Tamiya kit but with the T23 turret (and 76mm gun) mounted. Has the later 47-degree hull and large hatches. HVSS an option, too. DML’s M4A3E8 “Thunderbolt” is the most updated model for this version – the aforementioned Formations upper hull is an option too.
M4A3E2, Jumbo Sherman
Heavy turret, additional side armor and thickened glacis and nose armor. Originally used 75mm gun, field upgunning to 76mm was common. Upswept VVS with open spoke wheels. (Inadequate Tamiya kit; Blast makes the best resin upgrade)
M4A4
Mostly used by Commonwealth allies, features Chrysler engine (DML kit available, also Formations upgrade hull). Only photographed with three-piece transmission cover. 75mm and 17pdr Firefly were typical armaments. Stretched hull due to engine arrangement. Unaware of any hull fronts besides earlier 60-degree configuration. Horizontal return roller arm VSS, usually. Tasca will probably follow their Firefly VC with an M4A4.
Needless to say, these are just general rules of thumb. There were considerable upgrades
in many systems on the Sherman: 75mm turret hatches and gun mantlets, T23 hatch and
muzzle brake variation, ammo stowage (dry vs. wet) and accompanying side hull appliqué, suspension variations (wheels, drive sprocket, M3 early), return roller arm (horizontal, upswept, or pillowed), and many types of tracks.
Other Major Sherman Variants in WW2:
M3 Lee/Grant
Interim design advanced from prewar M2 Medium. Precursor to M4 series. 75mm gun in right sponson, 37mm M6 in upper turret. Radial engine, riveted hull. British requested Grant turret. Ancient Tamiya kits; Academy has their kit; ABM has resin upgrades.
The Lee series had upgrades in the 75mm armament. Later hulls eliminated the characteristic side escape doors. “M4” style VVS sometimes seen on M3A4s.
The other Lee variants:
- M3A1: Cast hull Lee, mostly used stateside for training.
- M3A3: Welded hull variant of M3.
- M3A4: welded hull diesel.
- M3A5: Diesel engine, riveted hull.
M10/M10A1 Tank Destroyer
Significant part of U.S. tank doctrine. Mounted 3" anti-tank gun in open turret. A1 was the Ford GAA version. Also upgunned w/17 pdr by Commonwealth allies. Academy and AFV Club have various kits.
M36 Gun Motor Carriage
Modification of the M10A1 with a new turret mounting the 90mm gun. Rare in WW2 with TD units but still significant variant. Academy and AFV Club injection kit although AFV Club has wrong engine deck. TWS has an update set.
M12 Gun Motor Carriage
Using the M1917, M1917A, or M1918M1 155mm gun mounted atop M3 Lee chassis. Very effective punch. Not widely made. Used exclusively in NWE. Academy offers an excellent kit.
M40 Gun Motor Carriage
Mounted 155mm M1 or M2 gun, built with M4 tank components and intended as a replacement for the M12 GMC. Used T66 tracks in WWII, T80 tracks in Korea. In kit form from AFV Club but needs work on the gun.
M43 Gun Motor Carriage
Similar to above, mounted 8 inch howitzer M1 or M2. Impending release from AFV Club.
M31/T2 Armored Recovery Vehicle
Conversion of obsolete M3 tanks into recovery vehicle with winches, A-frame, and various fittings. Kit fitted to M3A3, M3A5s as well. Excellent Calibre35 and Legends conversions eclipse older Azimut and DES kits.
M32 Armored Recovery Vehicle
Modification of various M4 chasses. A-frame, winches and other fittings allowed it for battlefield recovery of tanks. Early turrets were slab-sided, later ones horseshoe shaped. Italeri has this as a kit (but beware that there is no evidence of them being made with large hatch M4A1 hull as provided in their kit).
- M32 – M4, small hatch hull
- M32B1 – M4A1 small hatch cast hull
- M32B2 – M4A2, I’ve seen both small hatch and big hatch 47 degree hull
- M32B3 – M4A3, both 47 and 60 degree hulls
Full track Prime Movers M33, M34, M35
These were modifications of the M31, M32, and M10A1 respectively. Designed to move 240mm Howitzer and 8" guns pending delivery of the M6 HST. The modifications were the removal of recovery equipment (M31, M32) and armament (M10A1 turret). They added air brake systems for their artillery loads.
Roy, are you officially the Sherman Master? Or has no one bestowed that award on you yet? [(-D]
Good stuff! I had no idea there were THAT many variants of the Sheman. Wow.
[:)]–thanks roy, you have given me a big ‘heads up’ on my project. my book should come in about 10 working days-- I can hardly wait-- I am gonna give this build my very best-- in research and follow thru-- thank you kindly for your help— tread[8D]
Thnx for your complements: I’m just one of many who have a well-developed “Sherman Eye” I call it. We can detect variants by even very minor features (cheek bulge, glacis antenna pot styling, etc.) cuz we’ve spent so much time looking at photos of Shermans and their variants. Feel free to post questions of your build.
I’m embarrassed to say but stored in my grey matter are tweaks lists for most of the major kits… LOL
(not that I’m anywhere that productive at actually BUILDING the tanks – I just know what I’d like to do IF I actually attempt to build them! LOL)
heya Roy[:)]
I recieved the book ‘A History of the American Medium Tank’ by R P Hunnicutt today— thanks for pointing me in the right direction— It is everything I had hoped it would be-- tread[8D]
I’m one of the lucky souls to own every Hunnicutt. Enjoy it tread!
Just don’t ask who he had to kill to get them. [:D]
[:)]hi Roy–and anyone else who may chime in----
it’s tread again with another pain in the butt sherman question-- what exactly I am tring to ascertain is this for my Sherman project : would a Continental powered,75-mm,dry stowage, HVSS M4 have existed?-- it is hard to be sure from Hunnicutts’ book-- I now understand the model designations(continental ,G.M.,Ford,Chrysler)but it is hard to be sure of an exact time line for chassis and weapons–not to count ‘rebuilds’ and models that were up-gunned and upgraded later in the field or what ever-- I have seen models built the way I described but not sure if thier makers got it exactly correct-- also as you can see below from one of your posts back to me, I am a little unclear if the part I highlighted in red is supposed to mean HVSS or something different.(I do hope it meant to say HVSS)that would be very good for me-
There is not alot of ‘kitbashing’ I can do for this build as it will be in 1/16–but many of the parts I need I will make and many others are available-- I just want to get it correct-- the model comes as an M4 105 HVSS–I could possibly turn it into an M4A3 with 75-mm and HVSS-- that is in the book (page 330), but it is dry stowage-- I guess I just got a ‘hankerin’ to do the applique armor!!–and I love the look of the stubby gun compaired to the 76-mm–
anywhoo-- thanks for your time and patience with me --slow learning curve, but in the end , I will get it right!!–LOL—tread[8D]
Sherman Variants by Roy Chow
(all kit suggestions in 1/35 scale)
M4 with 75mm gun, radial engine
Had both hooded and direct vision driver/assistant driver’s stations. Came with M3 suspension, and later horizontal arm VVS suspention(Tamiya M4 early production kit or old MP Models conversion – currently the most accurate M4 you can make uses the DML M4A2 Sherman III with the Formations M4 conversion set). Sparingly used as basis for 17pdr Firefly. Had later 47-degree hull and large hatches for M4 105mm howitzer tank (TWS, Formations or Armoured Brigade).
(from another source)
US M4 Sub-Types
M4- Continental radial engine; welded hull; 75-mm and 105-mm versions only. Users: US, Britain, Poland, France (one vehicle). Some very late M4s had composite cast/welded hulls (cast hull front identical to M4A1 (76) W.).
M4(105) - Upgraded with 105 mm M4 howitzer.
M4(105) HVSS - M4(105) w/ HVSS.
Hey Tread,
That is quite some suddent and drastic change of subject from Russian T34 to Sherman [:P]
Ben
heya Ben[:)]-- yeah[:I]–I got 2 other Russian builds in 1/35 that I am just making SLOW progress on-- and needed to get re focused in another bigger (1/16) direction for a while–I want to see it finished next to my 1/16 tiger (and t-34)-- ya know i am probably the slowest builder in the world[8-]-----------tread[8D]
Hi Tread: I think you’re asking what can be done w/the Tamiya 1/16 M4 (105) HVSS kit right?
Well, the M4 in combination with HVSS only appeared as the 105mm version. None of the 75mm M4 gun tanks were so upgraded (unless it was some prototype, pilot research vehicle). As a matter of fact, the M4 (105) (VVS or HVSS) was the last incantation of the M4.
The truly viable conversions from the base Tamiya 1/16 kit are:
M4A3 105mm w/HVSS
M4A3 75mm w/HVSS
M4A3 76mm w/HVSS
M4A2 75mm w/HVSS
M4A2 76mm w/HVSS
The only one of these five with applique plates might have been the M4A2 75 w/HVSS. And these surely would have been in Soviet service. This vehicle and the two 105mm howitzer tanks, are the only ones with dry stowage. No howitzer tank got applique – probably because of its ammo stowage location? The 75mm M4A3 (late hull) had wet stowage – therefore any later built HVSS M4A3 would have had the wet lockers too – no applique.
I would guess that conversion kits are available in 1/16. Try some of the forums that deal with that scale. I tell you though, it wouldn’t surprise me if Trumpeter or Bronco or someone like that comes out with a modern 1/16 Sherman. Maybe just continue to accumulate reference material and finish some other builds? Just a suggestion.