you’ll have to add a brace to your desk if you use it for a paper weight!
gary
There’s no doubt this is a late war model lighter weight Pz IV track link (likely from a J)…but the width of only 38cm calls into question its authenticity. Definitely should be 40cm at its widest point (which would include the side hollow portions), how did you measure it Doog?
The Ausf.F through Ausf.J all used the same style track which required major depot wide upgrades to the suspension and running gear to use the 40cm track. Ausf. G through H were considered new build and the mods to accept the 40cm track were made standard in the factory. All the Tamiya and Academy Panzer IV kits were made for the 40cm track which had the wider sprocket drum in the final drive. But the Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf.D was supposed to be a early war version as stated in the painting instructions but has the hull and running gear of a Ausf.H but is supposed to have the running gear and tracks for the 36cm tracks.
Here’s where is measured it, Bill–it’s definitely 38 cm.
Is it possible that it was a foreign manufacturer? I doubt very, very highly that it’s not authentic. I mean, someone would have to almost craft this with the intrinsic error and then cast it as flawlessly as it is here? I could see if I bought a regular track that then turned out to be recast from another mold of a real, actual track. But why would someone go through the highly labor-intensive process to create an incorrect track? Usually forgers/fakers will simply re-create or re-cast or forge a copy of something already in existence.
Also, I think it’s certainly realistic to hypothesize that it could have been an attempt to save materials by manufacturing a narrower track again, ie, 38 cm, near the end of the war?
So what’s your theory on this track, Mikeym? Is it a late war H possibly? Or do you think it was earlier-war?
It’s early war because the 40cm track didn’t appear till sometime before Kursk (late 42 early 43). But the 38cm track appeared in early 1941 to replace the 36cm track.
Did this guy say where this track was found? Because that would make pegging the era easier.
He said it came from Poland–from a scrap yard, where there was a pallet full of them. That’s all he knew.
I guess that would make sense, huh? I mean, with the timetable of the movement of German forces in the years preceding Kursk?
I gotta admit that I am having trouble nailing down my refs with pictures of all the types…but these MK boxes have what I thought was the track, but it is 40cm: SK-27…still looking…my refs don’t cite 38cm tracks very much…most mention the 36cm and the 40cm…
or it could have been destroyed or abandoned in the retreat in late 44 through poland, whos tho say that this perticular track was in use durring to entire war? could have been destroyed early and left for scrap in poland, or somewhere else and the track links taken to poland for what ever reason. honestly it will probably be impossible to determine what era it came from or were even it came from there is to many possibilities?
Nice aquisition Doog. Unless you can get your hands on the provenance of the pallets of spare tracks, I wouldn’t rely too much on the idea that if they were in a scrap yard in Poland that they came from Poland. Post war and modern scrap is big business and there is no saying where they came from. They could have been collected anywhere and sold to the scrap dealer. Some one in turn saw them for what they were and realized a profit greater than scrap. They could be from the Czech Republic, Belarus, Slovakia, Ukraine, Lithuania or Germany. I would be content in knowing you picked up a Panzer III/Panzer IV track.
A good example of “how did this get here?” would be a friend of mine has a forklift and the counterweights are t-34 tracks with the ridges ground off and welded and stacked together. When we started digging around we found that the tracks were from a scrap yard in Virgina. They were incorporated into the forklift as a fix by the original lift owner who in turn sold them to a guy when he bought the business and later moved to Florida who in turn sold it to the final owner. The trail goes cold in Virgina but we speculated that somewhere, maybe Aberdeen, did a clean out and they ended up in a scrap dealers or scrap auction parcel. There were too many vehicles sold as scrap metal from Aberdeen back in the 50’s so we figured maybe from there. (mind you this was about a year of detective work but it was one of those things that once we started…)
As for counterfieters. Don’t sell them short either. There are big profits in good counterfeits. Anything that looks like it might make a good profit will be knocked off. I collect medieval artefacts. I have period bits of mail, armor, swords, daggers, pouches, buckles, spurs, belt findings, etc. and where possible I have the provenance for each piece. Sadly there are a few pieces that I picked up as Western European at auction that turned out to be eastern european. Though they are still medieval, they are not as advertised and were mislabeled or as is the case passed off as the more valuable western european pieces. Still again there are very talented workshops that will cast a buckle from an original and do a wonderful job of antiquing it to pass off as original. I identified a few pieces in a friends collection as Victorian copies passed off as originals by modern counterfeiters. During the Victorian era there was a whole industry in counterfeits called Billy and Charlies named after a couple of Thames River mudlarks that figured they could make a heftier profit off of selling “medieval” counterfeits over the extant pieces they were finding along the river.
The militaria market, especially comming out of Eastern Europe is no exception. Great efforts and expenses are made to make knock offs and something like tank tracks would be relatively easy with some sandcasting, acid baths and burying it out in the ground for a few weeks. A nice profit for a couple of foundry workers with some spare time and materials between jobs.
I’m not trying to rain on your parade, just offer you the advice of don’t entirely write off the idea of counterfeit, regardless of the perceived complexity or worth of the item. In all probobility you have the real McCoy given the large number of discards abandoned and factory leftovers after the war.
The reason I doubt this is an early war track is precisely for the reason Mikey lays out above. He’s right in the general overall time-frame of track design evolution however this pattern of track wasn’t in use until late 1944 onward and is most definitely a late war design long after the transition was made to 40cm tracks. There’s absolutely no question there at all because it has the lightened pattern on the track face itself, so I don’t doubt the possibility it was found in a scrap yard somewhere in Europe. It’s a real puzzle though as to why it’s measuring out to 38cm…perhaps we’ve made an assumption error here in how that should be calculated? Just out of curiosity, what’s the width when you include the track pin doog? Does that give it the extra 2 cm to get to 40? I’m guessing that’s the case but only you can confirm it! [(-D]
As far as counterfeiting goes, I have to agree with renarts. A couple of years ago I picked up a couple of “trade dollars” in the Philippines, silver dollars that were supposed to be used in the 1800’s as trading currency abroad. They looked 100% authentic down to wear, scratches, mint marks, you name it…but they were fake. What revealed the fake was their weight…the weight didn’t match up with the real deal because the counterfeiters had used lead and only just enough silver, properly aged with chemicals and nicked/scratched, to make it look real to the human eye on the outside. Very sophisticated in order to make a few bucks off of unsuspecting tourists thinking they were getting a bargain.
Doog,
That’s extremely cool! Is he selling this stuff or was it just a special deal for you? I can’t imagine how cool it would be to have a piece of history like that. Is it expensive?
Thanks,
Jeff
Kansas
I don’t care aboutthe who, what, where, when or how. All I know is since doog ggot his, mine is close behind. OOO the excitement[:P]
Holy cow! That thing looks like it’s like 35 times bigger than the model tracks!!!
[;)]
Guys, thanks for trying to unravel this mystery here with me; there’s osme great info here.
I have to say though, that I sincerely doubt that this is a fake or counterfeit. The reason being, that if this were fake, a counterfeiter wouldn’t do something so obviously stupid or clueless as to forge a 38 cm track with late war features!? I mean, the infuriating thing about profesional counterfeiters is that they are so good. If this was a faked track, it WOULD almost undoubtedly be correct in every aspect, and would be very difficult to disprove–either that, or it would be probably pretty obvious.
Secondly, interestingly enough, I took the time to put on my reading glasses last night and really look at the measurement closely–without measuring the trackpin, it measures out to just shy of 37.8 cm–hardly a precise measurement. However, with the track pin, if I measure it as you suggested, Bill–it is PRECISELY 40 cm!
Mystery solved? It would seem so–perhaps the measurements were done so as to weasure the overall lateral clearance of the track? If so, then it measures out exactly to 40 cm! [:D]
Bill, if you would–fill me in as to why this is definitely a late war track? I’m not really up on that–I thought the late war tracks were with hollow guide horns? What are the obvious identifying characteristics of this late-style track?
Hi Jeff–no. I just bid on it in an auction format. I picked it up for $105.47, with $19.95 for shipping.
If some guy was going to counterfeit these thiings, he’d counterfeit something less obscure than this particular track. He could make more money casting Tiger links for example. And one more thing; casting objects this large requires pretty sophisticated equipment, like casting and foundry facilities. It’s authentic, I’d bet my left cajone on it. Excellent purchase, doog, it’s good that you’re putting some of that ill gotten gain to good use!
Doog,
What’s his user id on ebay? Is that how he sell them, or is it through his website?
Jeff
Kansas
I agree, subfixer–it would take some pretty industrious machinery skill to make these, and I would think that, realistically, they would have been so relatively common at the end of the war in Poland that I doubt anyone would go through the trouble!
Jeff; his name was “corvetteload”, but wing_nut here in the forums got the last one he had. He only had two.
There is, however, one for sale right now in New Jersey. It’s currently up to $157.50 and the link is here:
12 hours left in bidding! Good luck!
You’re gonna love it, wing_nut!
Just holding it in your hands gives you a tingling feeling! [:P]