Hi all, I’m currently building Tristar’s Panzer IV Ausf. C and I was going to use the markings for the 1st Panzer Division in France 1940. Now my question is, would it be straight up panzer grey or would it be grey and green? I know that the earlier panzers did sport this camo. Just want to know before I continue. Thanks.
If I recall the dates correctly, by the Battle of France all the Panzers would be plain old panzer gray with no camo colors.
Early on, read Poland, they had brown camo, not green.
G
Ditto what G said!
Wayne and Ernest are almost correct. [;)] Battle of France concluded in May 1940 and the correct scheme for a IV Ausf C with the 1st Pz Div in France would be the 2/3 Dunkelgrau and 1/3 Dunkelbraun scheme. No green involved under this scenario. The order to switch to just plain dunkelgrau schemes (which we know as panzer gray) came down in June 1940 and stayed in effect until Feb '43. HTH! [B]
Agreed, Pz Grey it is…
Thanks gents for the quick reply. Now if anybody has a color plate or pic I can base the camo off, that would be great.[:D]
Interesting Bill! Does the dual camo affect all panzer divisions as well during the Battle of France, or only some divisions? For some reason I thought that plain dunkelgrau started becoming more widespread just before the invasion of Poland and would have been more predominant afterwards.
Ernest,
The order for the 2-tone scheme was in place since Nov '38 for all units and all divisions. Prior to '38 the ordered scheme was 3-tone. The monotone panzer gray scheme wasn’t ordered until June '40, so all vehicles serving in either Poland or France would have had either the pre-war 3-tone scheme or the 2-tone, no straight panzer gray vehicles at all. This has been concretely established by Jentz & Doyle through their research with original documents.
While conventional wisdom, based off b/w photos where the 2-tone camo doesn’t show well due to the very close contrasts of the two colors especially under a layer of dust and depending on lighting conditions (and coupled with the indications given by major model kit makers that panzer gray was the only scheme) held for a long time that straight panzer gray was the order of the day for all vehicles '39 to '43. We now know that’s not the case. The 2-tone scheme was applied at the factory or depot level prior to vehicles being accepted by the Waffenamt and vehicles in the field were ordered to be repainted as time and paint allowed from the pre-war 3-tone scheme into the 2-tone scheme. By the outbreak of war in Sept '39, not all units had complied and any vehicles that hadn’t been repainted would have been in the older 3-tone scheme, not panzer gray. There are several pics that show units with vehicles still in the 3-tone scheme mixed in with those sporting the 2-tone scheme for instance.
See examples below for the difference between them:
Panzer88, HTH in terms of a color plate, the colors are dark but it’s the best I could do with my scanner. [;)]
Very, VERY interesting Bill! Great information and outstanding photos you provided! This will cause me to rethink some of the paint schemes I was planning for some upcoming builds! Exciting too because I’ve been interested in trying the three tone camo on early war panzers!
So there you go panzer88, amazing stuff from Bill! I hope you try the gray/brown camo pattern on that Ausf.C!
Thank you very much Bill. Remembering your earlier Bison build is what got me thinking. I figured that you you would probably have the answer. Funny thing is, the kit says Thomas Jentz helped with the technical advice, yet the directions for the marking call out for solid panzer grey.
DML and the other majors (Tamiya in particular) have been slow to adopt the 2-tone scheme in their recommended markings guides included in the kits and while Jentz may have provided technical advice, that doesn’t always mean they listened 100% [:)]. Only within the past year or so have they actually started depicting kits (both box art and finishing guides) with the correct scheme, I’m assuming at the pushing and prodding of various individuals and discussions that have taken place on different forums and IPMS/AMPS gatherings. More and more photos have come to light out of private and official collections that support the 2-tone and that has no doubt also contributed. [B] Happy to be of help!
Very interesting info there Bill. Its not just the model companies that seem to be slow in seeing this. Alot of referance books have Panzer from Poland and France in Pz Grey. I have a few early war pz’s that i was going to do in straight Pz Grey, so deffinatly going to have to look into this, and see if tehre are in pics of the vehicles i am building to get a correct scheme.
Bish,
That’s true, depending on the publication date and whether or not it’s a re-print of an older edition, etc. various reference materials say different things about the Poland/France scheme. That’s the beauty of the “scholarship” side of the hobby, new information is constantly coming to light about different things and some previous notions/conventional wisdom can often become deeply entrenched and therefore slow to change if it’s proven to not be as accurate as once thought. Happily there’s no Modeler’s Inquisition hunting down heretics (at least not yet!) when it comes to this type of thing. [:D]
Ye, seems funny all this info coming to light all these years later.Like the thing with the 251/3. But you still see Command Ausf B’s being labeled as a /3 even when its clear its early war. But, if people are happy to stick to what been the norm, then who’s to argue. But i certainly am glad you brought this up now.
Do you know if this also applies to soft skin vehicles or just armour.
If i didn’t know better, i would say someone at dragon has been watching
Bish,
Schemes also apply to soft-skins. There’s some great color footage of parades in Berlin I believe (don’t have the link handy) that show both HTs and trucks towing guns also in the two-tone scheme.