Hello, recently I’ve been working on the Sd.Kfz. 171 Panther A Early Type kit from Dragon. It’s a nice kit and coming along nicely, how ever being the freak I am, I’m here to ask a few questions. I plan to build a diorama for this kit and per usual I like it to have a ‘story’ If you will. I want to stick this particular tank in Italy in 1943. So naturally I have a few questions for the history majors out there. First off the tank will not have zimmerit as I understand that some of the very early Ausf A’s did not have it factory applied (Pictures somewhere to prove this). Secondly I hope to stick it in with the 1st Pz.Div… to my understandings the 1st was involved in subduing the Italian 11th army.
So basically I was just wondering if this all sounds correct, any help is much appreciated.
I’ve checked a couple Osprey books on panzer divisions, as well as a Squadron publication on SS armour. Looks like it was the 1st SS-Panzer-Division LAH you are looking for… According to Osprey, during the summer of '43 they were in northern Italy for occupation duty. There is a quick entry of atrocities, followed with the unit sent back to Russia in November of that same year.
Squadron describes their stay in Italy for training and re-equipping, including a battalion of Panthers.
While the 1st SS Pz Dv. did receive a Panther Abteilung while they were re-fitting during the summer of 1943 in Northern Italy, LSSAH saw no combat action in Italy, only training and anti-partisan duties, then promptly sent back to Russia. While I have some photos of these Panther A’s, they appear to have Zimmerit in most photos, some you just can’t tell.
A Panther Ausf A without zimmerit can be seen in at least one photo of vehicles of the 1st Battalion, Panzer Regiment 4, (an independent Panzer unit which was detached from the 13th Pz Dv and sent to Italy.) I can’t find the photo at the moment, but a two-page color artwork depicting this photo can be found on page 58-59 of Osprey’s Anzio 1944. These Panthers saw action in the spring of 1944 in and around Anzio, Nettuno and Aquillo.
Thanks for the info Ixion, I would love to see that photo if you ever find it (Or do you recall the Number on the turret?). I guess I will be modeling my Panther after this… time for some more research. I can’t be certain but the picture below is suppose to be an Ausf A in Anzio. I can’t make out if It has zim on it or not.
I’m still new to the hobby and getting to know my way around the history aspect of it. Would I be correct to assume this tank would be painted in the Dark Yellow fashion with the Balkans Cross between the exhaust and on the turret?
This Panther definitely is no longer from an SS unit. The commander in the copula has the chest eagle on his jacket (the SS wore their eagle insignia on the upper left sleeve).
If the setting is Anzio, it is likely very early 1944. The allied invasion took place January 22nd. Initially the Panthers sent there were organized as an independent battalion, I./Pz Rgt.4 and would eventually be absorbed by 26 Panzer Div.
Good news…I found the photo, bad news…the artwork based on it in Osprey’s Anzio 1944 is wrong. [:XX] The Panther A in question actually does have Zimmerit in the photo. This is not as easy as I first thought. I did manage to find the combat history of the 1/ PzRg 4 in the Combat History of sPzAbt 507 , as they were attached to the 507th during the campaign, then absorbed into the 26th Pz Dv. Here again, grainy photos make identification difficult. On page 188 of Combat History of sPzAbt 507 there is a photo which could go either way, sorry I don’t have a scanner or I would post it. The photo you posted of 221 appears to have Zimmerit. Starting on page 42 of this; http://www.scribd.com/doc/82564016/Panzers-in-Italy-1943-1945-English you will find photos of 1/PzRg 4 Panthers. 221 is finished in overall Dark Yellow with crosses at the far front of the hull sides and between the exhausts on the rear. No crosses on the turret. At least some had turret numbers on the turret rear as well. Osprey’s Modelling the Panther Tank covers a detailed built of Panther 415 of 1/PzRg4, but alas, with Zim.
The only photo of a Panther A without Zim that I know of of the top of my head is on page 62 of Jentz’s Panther Tank, the Quest for Combat Supremacy and it certainly isn’t in Italy. You only have about a week’s worth of production from the 4 plants before the introduction of Zimmerit, so finding a photo will be difficult at best.
Note the storage box and bundle of fascines on the rear deck, as can also be seen in the side view of 221 you posted. You can also see the small square-patterned Zimmerit clearly on the left rear hull storage bin.
This is what I was afraid of, dam zimmerit. Where was the Panther you speak of in Jentz’s book? And apart of what Pz.Div? … The research will never end, haha
The photo is on page 62 of Jentz’s Panther Tank, the Quest for Combat Supremacy. This vehicle (no unit listed, but appears to be in Russia) was built by Daimler-Benz on or about October 1st, 1943, a month after Ausf A production began and three weeks Zimmerit application was offically to have begun. The Fahrgestell nummer or Chassis Number of this vehicle is 151951. Fgst.Nr. for Panther Ausf A built at Daimler-Benz ran between 151901 through 152575. This means there were 50 Panther Ausf As built at D-B by Oct.1st, when this vehicle, which was without Zimmerit, rolled off the assembly line. If Zimmerit application had not yet started at D-B by Oct. 1st, most likely the preceding 50 did not have it either. It is not known how soon after this date Zimmerit application at D-B actually started. A similar situation could also have existed at MAN, MNH and Demag as well. So there were a considerable, yet still small number of these vehicles built. In addition, on page 144 there is a brief operational history of Panthers in Italy. This shipment of 76 Panthers for 1/PzRg 4 was mainly early Ausf A, but there were also a few Ausf D included, this may raise the possibility of a few unzimmed Ausf A being present. However, many of these unzimmed Ausf D and Ausf A could have received Zimmerit at a later date when sent back for major repairs, but we know the not all of them did, as I also came across another photo in the Ardennes of a Ausf A without Zim.
So I could still model my panther with no zim after the 1/PzRg4 in and around Anzio, Or perhaps model it after that one in the Ardennes, I found some photos on it here, but it appears to be an Ausf D in Russia…
While it appears possible that 1/PzRg4 might have had one, I would still want to find a photo to be sure, but that’s just me. Or go with the Ardennes one, since you found the photo and artwork.
Yeah, I would also want a photo haha. But the one in the Ardennes region is also speculated to be a D in Russia… oh my oh my
Here are some pictures I found of Ausf A’s which are questionable, but appear with out zim. I don’t have a keen eye for spotting it in these grainy photos though.
Thanks for comformation, like I said not a keen eye for those details on old crappy photos. I still wonder if that Panther was actually an Ausf A in the Ardennes.
438 in the Ardennes is definately NOT a Ausf D. You can plainly see the square-cut interlock between the turret side and turret front, Ausf D had a dove-tailed interlock welding seam.
Ah, how I long for those days, not so long ago, early 70’s, when I could build the old Tamiya Panther ausf A, no references anywhere, no zimmerit (what’s zimmerit?) paint it like the box art, and look at it in blissful ignorance. But I still wouldn’t want to go back to that point in time.
Perhaps you might want to consider doing your own zimm? I’ve done it many times, isn’t really all that hard. Well, it can be a pain… Or you can consider that it was one without zimmerit that never had it’s picture taken. There had to be one of those, right? As some others here have observed, zimmerit can be quite difficult to observe in grainy photos. I’ve had that problem as well.
good luck
Doug
BTW, I built a Dragon A based on that pic in the Jentz book, no zimm, then one with Cavalier zimm.
According to the site I lifted it from, “ausf A sicuramente non zimmerati”. I have not seen this as a actual photo. There are tons of GD photos to wade through…maybe later.
Now I just need to brush up on my camo painting skills, haha.