Another recent thread on this site prompted me to ask the answer to a question that has plagued me for a few years and prevented me from commencing my Dragon P-61.
What colour is the nose glazing? Was the “glazing” made from moulded perspex or some other compound? Fibreglass?
Some photos show what appears to be a translucent glazing, others show what seems to be a solid but pale colour and others show the glazing painted over completely.
All info is good info and most welcomed…
The nose was built out of some type of Fiberglass if i remember. I’ve never seen a photo of a translucent nose cone, but I have seen the pale color you talk about. If you choose a plane with this look, you’ll want to use a cream color. Not all of the cone was painted this color, usually just the top part like in this photo. Also, do your research because some crews painted the underside of the nose cone with lead paint to eliminate ground clutter!!! Good luck with your kit!
Thanks mate.
Maybe it was colour profiles in a book/mag where I’ve see a translucent nose, rather than photos - I can’t quite recall now.
I had always thought the radome was some form of opaque material such as fibreglass but the “frosted” nose glazing as supplied in the Dragon kit combined with the profiles/photos of translucent glazing left me uncertain.
I’m guessing that the Model Master “radome tan” may be appropriate; or is this too dark (or too brown)?
Radome tan looks like it’d be a good color. It’s pretty darn light. Good luck!
I spoke tonight with one of my best friends, who was a crew chief on P-61s in Italy in 1945. Theirs all came black, they never repainted anything, but his recollection was that two men could remove a radome and replace it on a pair of lifts. Sounds like fiberglass to me. 12 SOSU fasteners around the perimeter.
I’ll repeat myself: one interesting detail was that the a/c all came with tape over the airframe to control surface joints, and since they didn’t have Tamiya tape (DUH!!) it took off all the paint.
He flew his second one home from the Brenner Pass in the second seat, in a vain attempt to save a wounded pilot.
Bondoman
The photos I’ve seen of the unpainted P-61 radomes appear a rather light - I would probably add a little white to the Radome Tan (just a personal preference). And apparently under the right lighting conditions, the radome would appear translucent. There is a pic somewhere (it pops up every now and then in articles on the P-61) taken when the sun was directly behind the radome of an early parked P-61. The outline of the radar antenna is very noticable and fairly clear.
I don’t believe you’ll find a P-61 with “Radome Tan” like the type of tan you’ll find on early F-14s or some A-6s. P-61 noses were made of fiberglass. I have pictures in my P-61 books which, while under factory flight testing, had a bright light behind them such as the sun or a factory light. In each case, the bright lighting in the background revealed the translucent nature of the fiberglass. It was not clear like Perspex by any means but you could still see the definite silhouette of the radar in the nose filtered through the fiberglass. The early O.D. birds would sometimes come with a greyish overcoating and the bottoms were often painted with a form of lead paint. I believe that was to reduce ground clutter but I could be wrong about that. I thought I read that in one of my Widow references. I’ll have to double check on that.
I think most Black Widow fans are familiar with Herman Ernst’s “Borrowed Time” which had it’s nose painted in an RAF trainer yellow. It was not uncommon for ground crews to use whatever paints were available (especially RAF colors) to adorn their aircraft.
Back then, radar was still very secretive and hush-hush so I don’t think you would ever find a front line P-61 with an unpainted or “clear” nose cones.
I, like echolmberg, have seen a picture in one of my references of a “Widow” on the ground with the sun in the background and you can definitely see the shadow of the radar dish. And I have read that they DID use a special lead paint on the undersides of the nose.
Here are three samples of different configurations.
I’ve thought the radomes on the P-61 were made of plexiglas, based on this picture from Darkly Dangerous, by Warren Thompson.
As the caption states, that is a YP-61. It was a evaluation model, not a production model. Production models had an opaque radome.
Also, you may have inadvertently posted the wrong picture. The caption also names the plane as “Black Maria” from the Peter M. Bowers collection.
The name Black Maria can be read on the nose of the airplane in the photo in the book, so I guess that YP-61 had a name. The blown rather than framed windscreen indicates it is aYP-61. The text also states that the first P-61’s had plexiglass radomes and this was changed to resin impregnated glass fiber during production. This would probably be one of the first production uses of “fiberglass”, because the invention of the process by which the type of glass fiber used for resin impregnation had only recently occurred, by Owens Corning in 1938. Polyester resins came into production in 1942 (American Cyanamid, using information spied out of Germany by the British) 1942 and the first glass-resin aircraft parts were made by Owens Corning in 1942. Since the design of the P-61 started in 1940 the use of plexiglass as a radome before fiberglass parts were known to be radar transparent seems consistent.
There was an earlier similar material known as Micarta, but it was much denser than the fiberglass we know today, and was commonly used in aircraft as fairleads and insulators. It was lighter colored than Bakelite but was much darker than any cream color. Fiberglass was not in common use as an insulation until the 50’s. The first Corvettes were very high tech because they were made of fiberglass, and that was mid 50’s. The very first fiberglass boat was layed up in 1942 by Ray Greene who was working closely with Owens Corning and none were in production until the 50’s.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, it’s just that I’m unfortunately old enough to be before some of these wonder materials.
Here is another photo from the same book as the other one I posted, this time of a P-61A in Europe, which references a plexiglass radome.
Once again, I’m not writing any of this to advance the idea that I know more than someone else, just following an interesting subject. Before this thread I had thought all of the P-61 radomes were plexiglass, and now I’ve learned the interesting fact that they were also made of fiberglass. I leave it to someone else to determine where in the production run this happ-ened and which aircraft had the dome changed in the field!
Radomes are such fussy things. In all of the airplanes I flew or worked on, if repairs were to be made they had to go to people specializing in radomes, and even repainting had to be done according to certain procedures.
John. I wish to take the opportunity to publicly apologise.
I, too, was not trying to be argumentive or insinuate you were not well versed. I did something I do quite often. I misread the text of your initial post.
I read your first post to say, based on this picture OF Darkly Dangerous, not FROM. I realise now, after rereading it that you were referring to a book not the picture itself. I find the information that you just posted interesting and will have to put it somewhere for safe keeping and future reference. Lord knows I won’t be able to remember it!! I also need to try and find that book.
Have a great evening sir. And thanks for posting those pictures. I am always looking for pictures of the “Widow”.
Once again. I like your webpage, John. I found some interesting stuff on there.
Randie, the P-61 is one of my favorites, too. Darkly Dangerous and the Osprey Book P-61 Black Widow Units of WW II are two of the references I have, along with various articles in Wings/Airpower and Air Classics. I have way too many Monogram P-61 kits. But there is no need to aplogize. Sometimes I get too enthusiastic and write more than other people want to read, so I try to be careful because of that.
Hi,
To answer your question the randome was fibreglass which housed the SCR-720 airbourne Intercept radar fitted to P-61A’s. it was usually left unpainted giving it a light colour (color). The P-61B’s had a better A.I radar installed but was bigger hence the nose became longer by 8" to accommodate this change in size. I hope this muddy’s it up some. Cheers Jim
