I have an older Monogram 1/48 P-40B that I want to finish and wondered what color of Model Master paint would I use for the bottom?
I am painting it in the “Hell’s Angels” colors of the Flying Tigers.
I was thinking of the Duckegg blue but I think it might be too light.
Is the color on the bottom of these aircraft a very faint blue or what?
I have even seen some that were white on the bottom but I don’t think that is correct. I appreciate any help.
Thanks
Mike
Hi Mike, The AVG P-40-B’s were painted in a British camo scheme, but used the closest match available in the US factory. The undersides were a medium gray, the closest match in the Model Master enamel paint line is “Aircraft Grey”. The topsides were done in a fairly dark brown, slightly darker than RAF Dark Earth, and dark green, very close to RAF Dark green.
Thanks Rick.
I have already painted the the top half in MM FS 30117 Military Brown and was going to do the green part in MM olive drab. I guess that would be wrong huh?
Mike
Yeah, that would be way wrong. Probably the best color would be US Green 42, but the RAF Dark Green would be lots better than OD. If you decide to weather your model, be aware that the Dark Brown appeared to weather significantly more than the Dark Green. In some color pics, the War Weary AC had the Dark Brown weathered to an almost Sandy Brown, although none of these were painted in the Sand Brown color. The Chinese National Insignia on the upper wings also faded to a much lighter blue than the more protected under wing insignia. This is reflected in most of the available decal sheets.
Thanks Rick.
Since you mentioned decals, who makes the ones I need for this kit?
I have been out of modeling for several years and the last time I bought decals they were by Super Scale and Micro Scale which I don’t even know if they are producing decals anymore.
By the way, this web site shows the colors the AVG P-40Bs were painted in but I can’t find those FS numbers in Testors Acryl or enamel line.
http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/shemes/usaafavg_e.htm
Mike
The top of the Flying Tiger P-40’s was Dark Green (Dupont 71-065) and Dark Earth (Dupont 71-013). The bottom was Aircraft Gray (F.S. 16473).
I used Tamiya Dark Green (XF-61) and Flat Earth (XF-52) for the top and Sky Gray (XF-19) for the bottom.
I used Eagle Productions decals, and I think they have them for the 1/48 scale as well.
Sheets have been issued by Aeromaster, SuperScale and EagleCals, to name a few. Cutting Edge is coming out with new sheets in 1/48, anticipating the release of the new P-40B coming from Trumpeter. You may experience minor problems with the shark mouths if they are not designed for the Monogram kit, which most are not, but a little slicing and touch-up will solve that. You can see the 1/32 versions of the new Cutting Edge decals @ www.meteorproductions.com . Others may or may not be findable, the AVG is a very popular subject.
Thanks Scott and Rick.
I found the reference I have that I went by for the color of the bottom of this P-40B. It is a book by Barry C. Wheeler called, “Military Aircraft Markings & Profiles” and it says on page 78, “most AVG-operated aircraft were finished in this Dark Green, Earth, and Light Blue camouflage.”
I guess that book is incorrect.
Mike
Yeah, the common thought is that they were light blue on the bottom, but if you do enough research you’ll find references that say they weren’t. My colors came from the book “Tigers Over China” by Thomas A. Tullis. I don’t have the book but the colors were quoted on the Eagle Productions decal set.
Here is a very good link for the 1/48 Monogram kit:
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/allies/us/jacksonp40b.htm
Lots of pics and information.
Forgot to mention … there is at least one color photograph of the Tigers around. I have a copy of it at the office, but not here. It shows five of them flying in formation. Presumably it was taken by the flight leader. It is of the 3rd Squadron Hells Angels. Beautiful photo to.
I didn’t find the one I was lookinfg for, but here is a link to some color photos of the Tigers: http://www.us-aircraft.com/research_topicsflyingtiger.htm
In the top two down you can see the bottom of the aircraft, and the text under the second reads, in part, “For the record, I believe that my hypothesis of a Sky colored underneath, is most likely incorrect in the face of the evidence.”
Scott,
Thanks for the link. I appreciate it. [;)]
Mike
In that reference photo link it says that the P-40 was: “Dupont Dark Earth 71-009 FS30117.” I painted this P-40’s topside with Model Master Military Brown which is FS30117 according to Testors but Rick says that’s the wrong color. Is Testors wrong on that FS number?
Mike
These aircraft were built for the RAF, but diverted to China and the AVG. The specs called for them to be painted in RAF colors, Dark Earth, Dark Green over Sky type S. Thus some researchers in the past assumed the undersides would be in Sky, a bluish color. Later research found that Curtiss used the closest paints available in the US at the time and that Curtiss confused the Sky type S with Sky type N, a light gray. They used Aircraft Gray, a US Navy color widely used in the 1930’s and early 1940’s. Color photos exsist, which show pretty convincing evidence that the AC undersides were grey, not blue. The color references by MusicCity are correct, but I was trying to give you the closest matches in Model Master enamel. The last one I built, I used Model Master enamels RAF Dark Earth with 20% dark brown, US Green 42, and Aircraft Gray. Hope this helps.
Plus, by the time you add the effects of sun, dirt, wind and prop blast, I think you could convince people that virtually any shade of dark brown / dark green would be correct. Add a little oil sheen on the gray bottom and it would start to look somewhat blue from some angles.
The funny thing about the Flying Tigers is that with all their fame, they were in existance for less than 8 months. The Flying Tigers saw action for the first time on December 20, 1941 and were disbanded on July 4, 1942. There is probably no more recognizeable airplane around though [:)]
That’s some good info guys, thanks.
Rick,
Those colors are in the Model Master military enamel line?
Do they still produce those colors?
I don’t see RAF Dark Earth or US Green 42 on Testors web site. [%-)]
I found the RAF Dark Earth, but still don’t see the US Green 42.
Mike
Here’s some images that may help you out, or confuse you!
Interpreting color images from this period can sometimes be difficult as there are many factors to consider. Just too many variables to get into unless you want me to write a small book. [;)] Although I will say that the selection below illustrates very well the difficulties involved!
Nevertheless, color photos of the time are still among our best clues as to what stuff looked like back then.
Sorry for the scan-lines, I gotta get a new machine… [:(!]
3rd Sqn, Kunming, May '42 - This is one shot that seems to support the idea that at least some of the AVG Hawks may have had blue undersides. This photo is scrutinized closely in Tommy Tullis’ Tigers Over China, which I recommend as one of many excellent references on this subject.
3rd Sqn, Photoflight 3, Older #68
I’ve got several more color shots, some which are useful and some which are just plain cool to look at, which I can scan if you like. Also, I’ve got a ton of b/w stuff; so if you decide on a particular aircraft, chances are I’ve got an image of it.
Fade to Black…
Thanks for the references BlackWolf.
After looking at those photos I wonder why anyone would even use the darker browns on that camo pattern when they have to weather it all the way down to a sand color? I would say just paint it a sand tone and make it look weathered and it would look like the photos.
Mike
Dark Earth really isn’t that dark, at least not what you’d call a “Dark Brown”. It’s darker than what is shown in those photos (which, BTW are great BlackWolf! Wish I’d seen them a month ago) but not what I would call dark brown. It’s more of a dark sand color.
Also, take note of the antenna. You can see part of it in the photo of Charles Older and R.T. Smith. It goes from the rudder to each wingtip and also to the spine of the fuselage. Maybe it was common in that era and I just never noticed, but I haven’t seen an “Inverted Vee” on an aircraft before.
The colors that were recommended to me were MM FL. Gull Grey, MM Dark Earth, and MM RAF Dark Green.
Tim Landers
Mike V: Woops, I just realized that the US Green 42 I used was from my dwindling stash of Aeromaster enamels, now OOP. Sorry about that, but the RAF Dark Green is very close. If you added about 10% or so True Blue it would be almost an exact match. MusicCity makes a good point, that by the time the Aircraft were weathered the differences in the Green would be insignificant. The discussion here was relative to how Curtiss painted the aircraft and how they left the factory. As I mentioned in a previous post, the Dark Brown weathered to a Sandy Brown color, evident in many of the surviving photographs. So how you depict the aircraft is sorta a snapshot in time, near factory fresh or war weary. Other points that might be of interest are the gear doors were painted zinc chromate on the interior side, but the wheel bay interiors had canvass covers that were likely painted in the under side color since corrosion protection from the zinc chromate wasn’t needed, the wheels were unpainted on the axle side and many were painted the underside gray on the exterior side as they were visible in flight. However, several of the aircraft had colorful graphics on the exterior hubs, so chack your references. The distinctive shark mouths were individually painted in the field and there was variation between aircraft, but the decal guys usually get it correct. The aircraft camo was painted using using rubber mats cut to the correct pattern for masks, so the demarcation lines were sharp, not feathered. Some photos show areas of soft edges, but this was very likely from field repair.
TimL: Flat Gull Grey is close, but no cigar. The Aircraft Gray reference is correct.
