Old 666

[Mobius118]

i was wondering if anyone has ever seen or perhaps built the B17 Flying Fortress ‘old 666’
ive thought about just scratch building it but im not the greatest at kit bashing (ive only ever successfully converted 1/48 Su27 flankers too Su37 Terminators) and there is alot of extra guns to add to it. if anyone has any info on this id love the help, google hasnt turned up much more the story ive heard many times before. im new around here as well, but have been building models since i was 6.

[richs26]

Search this forum as someone was working on one last year as I remember.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

“Old 666” was B-17E BO-41-2666 … From Wikipedia:

By 1943 Old 666, tail number 12666, had suffered heavy battle damage and had gained a reputation as a cursed bomber, often coming back from missions with heavy damage. Grounded at Port Moresby Airport, it was parked at the end of the runway where other aircrews could cannibalize it for needed parts. A friend of Zeamer’s said to him, “I know where there’s a bomber, but no one will fly it anymore because every time it goes out it gets shot to hell!”

Captain Zeamer, who had been unable to acquire an aircraft of his own, had the bomber towed out of the ‘bone yard’ and, with enormous effort, not only restored the badly battered aircraft to flight status but made many changes.

They included increasing the number of machine guns from 13 to 19, replacing the waist gunners’ standard single guns with twin guns, replacing all .30 cal machine guns with the larger and more powerful .50 cal, and adding a fixed-position gun that could be fired from the pilot’s station. Zeamer’s crew put guns where they didn’t even need them, and left spare machine guns on the aircraft’s catwalk; if a gun jammed at a critical moment they could dump it and quickly replace it. These modifications made Old 666 the most heavily armed bomber in the Pacific Theater.

They also mounted a gun behind the ball turret near the waist. In the months of missions that followed, Zeamer’s crew was so busy that they never had the time to adorn their bomber with the traditional nose-art, commonly seen on aircraft of that era.

Though many subsequent accounts refer to the bomber as “Lucy,” that was not a title Zeamer and his crew ever used. The only markings the converted B-17G bore was the tail number—the bomber became known simply as Old 666. In May, Zeamer and crew made askip-bombing run on a Japanese aircraft carrier, swooping within fifty feet of its decks.

A few days later on a daylight bombing raid overRabaul, ‘Old 666’ came in so low it was brushing the roofs of the housetops. On a night mission over Wewak, the Japanese gunners on the ground managed to fix the flight of incoming American bombers in the glare of several large searchlights, but, in an audacious display of airmanship, Zeamer dove on the positions, shooting out three and damaging two others.

On a May 5 mission over Madang, ‘Old 666’ was hit more than sixty times by anti-aircraft fire, the stabilizer was shot out and the oxygen tanks exploded, yet the aircraft landed safely and was quickly patched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

So, near as I can tell anyway, a 1/48th conversion would entail using the Revell B-17F “Memphis Belle” kit as a starting point, and getting a B-17E bombardier’s nose built… B-17 Guy and/or B-17 Pilot (both members here) are pretty knowlegeable in that arena… The Revell/Monogram 1/48th B-17G would work too, but require much more surgery in the nose area than the Revell ‘F’…

Here’s the only photo I’ve found that MIGHT be “Old 666”… I can’t be sure although the “greenhouse nose” appears to belong to a “E”…

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/B17OLD666.jpg?t=1293367533)

With no S/N I can’t be sure… Note also that there isn’t actually a crew hatch on the port side of the rear of the waist compartment, nor are the markings on the wings “backwards” but rather that the negative has been reversed and we’re looking at the starboard side…

Here’s a video with a CGI rendition of “Old 666” in the FWIW Dept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Im086TCu3I&nofeather=True

[Hans_von_Hammer]

Some screenshots from the YouTube video:

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/B-17E-OLD 666/OLD666CGI_2.jpg?t=1293369023)

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/B-17E-OLD 666/OLD666CGI_3.jpg?t=1293369176)

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/B-17E-OLD 666/OLD666CGI_1.jpg?t=1293369266)

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/B-17E-OLD 666/OLD666CGI_4.jpg?t=1293369327)

Note that there appears to be a “tunnel gun” (similar to the TBF’s .30 cal tail-stinger position) aft of the waist windows which fires through an opening in the floor… I can’t find a picture of the opening or the mount, but some common sense should make it relatively easy to figure out ABOUT where it was and how it would be mounted… I reckon it would be a .30 cal as well… But that’s a SWAG on my part only… Without interior waist photos, we’ll never know…

It also appears that the Radioman/Gunner’s postion is armed with a .30 cal (and gunner is exposed too)…

[ww2psycho]

Not that it can be totally trusted, but one of the seasons of Dog Fights has it in it. Its the Long Odds episode. Might be some help though, I know you can youtube it also.

It looks like those images in the above post are from the History Channel. Might be from what i’m talking about.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

It looks like those images in the above post are from the History Channel. Might be from what i’m talking about.

Yeah, that’s the episode of “Dogfights” I linked to… No you can’t TOTALLY trust The History Channel for refs, but oftentimes ya gotta “just go with it” simply because there are no other easily obtainable sources than the ones used by the show itself… For instance, I can’t get access to the Library of Congress on a regular basis, but THC seems use it a lot… If you apply a little detective work, coupled with some common knowledge (and a little artistic license-See the Modelcraft F-82 Build-YIKES to determine the eligibility requirements for said License), and a few cross-references of aricraft in the same unit and time-frame, you can get pretty darn close… And “Pretty Darn Close” is good enough for most… Well… For me anyway…

Doesn’t have to be a EXACT, dead-center bull’s-eye, or whether it’s the right or left ventricle of the heart… Just being in the “10-ring” is still a bull’s-eye, knowhutImean, Vern?

[;)]

[richs26]

[quote user=“Hans von Hammer”]

"So, near as I can tell anyway, a 1/48th conversion would entail using the Revell B-17F “Memphis Belle” kit as a starting point, and getting a B-17E bombardier’s nose built… B-17 Guy and/or B-17 Pilot (both members here) are pretty knowlegeable in that arena… The Revell/Monogram 1/48th B-17G would work too, but require much more surgery in the nose area than the Revell ‘F’…

Here’s the only photo I’ve found that MIGHT be “Old 666”… I can’t be sure although the “greenhouse nose” appears to belong to a “E”…

!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft%20Profiles/B17OLD666.jpg?t=1293367533

With no S/N I can’t be sure… Note also that there isn’t actually a crew hatch on the port side of the rear of the waist compartment, nor are the markings on the wings “backwards” but rather that the negative has been reversed and we’re looking at the starboard side…

Here’s a video with a CGI rendition of “Old 666” in the FWIW Dept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Im086TCu3I&nofeather=True

Hans, this picture is one of an early E model with the remote controlled belly turret of which 112 were made, and with no serial it looks to be a pre-war model. 41-2666 had the regular ball turret. You could use the Koster set for the D-E models as it would have the correct braced nose, not the pointed F nose. Also the cowlings would be the correct size as the cowlings were shortened to allow the new paddleblade props to feathered on the F and G.

Mobius, google for Captain Jay Zeamer and you can find loads of info, such as factsheets from the USAF Museum.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

Hans, this picture is one of an early E model with the remote controlled belly turret of which 112 were made, and with no serial it looks to be a pre-war model. 41-2666 had the regular ball turret.

Right, but what I don’t know, and haven’t been able to find out, is if 41-2666 had a ball turret installed at the factory or if it was retro-fitted after delivery… Pretty much all the B-17s with the prefix of “41” were pre-war, the exceptions being any that had actually hit the assembly line prior to 1 JAN 1942 (unless the S/Ns were based on the US Government’s Fiscal Year, then the S/Ns would’ve started with “42” in Oct 41… The particular photograph though, is kinda tough to call, since the US Insignia is correct for B-17s in 1941-early 1942, however, the lack of red/white “Neutrality Stripes” on the rudder may date it as 1942…

Since the photo is reversed we’re actually seeing the starboard side of the Fort, so the data-plaque with the s/n is on the port side… Without that, we can’t tell what the serial number actually is…

At any rate, I spent about and hour & a half looking for all I could get on “Old 666” (LOTS of Google pages), cross-referencing, copying links, and getting those screenshots uploaded (my compter’s extremely S…L…O…W… when uploading to Photobucket)… I’ve had enough of “Old 666”, lol…

Were I doing it, I’d use the “Dogfights” episode as a reference, and call it good enough…

[B17Pilot]

The serial number reflects the Fiscal Year in which the order for the aircraft is placed, not the year in which it is delivered I.E. in '41 the government orded X number of B-17s, so Boeing was given a set range of 41-xxxxx numbers, though some planes with a 41 serial number wouldn’t be delivered until 1942. The AAF orderd X number of planes from Boeing and given enough serial numbers for said planes at the time of purchase, so Boeing simply used the next available number given to them when producing a Fort.

Ole 666 was a B-17E with a ball turret factory installed. It was used for parts until Captain Zeamer went looking for a plane. His crew modified the bomber by upgrading all guns to 50 cal, twin mounts in the waste, a fixed gun the pilot could fire, and stored extra guns to be used when one jammed.

Here a Wikipedia article on the Fort:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

[B17Pilot]

So you would have to use either the Koster or Paragon E-conversion

[dmk]

Ole 666 was a B-17E with a ball turret factory installed. It was used for parts until Captain Zeamer went looking for a plane. His crew modified the bomber by upgrading all guns to 50 cal, twin mounts in the waste, a fixed gun the pilot could fire, and stored extra guns to be used when one jammed.

Here a Wikipedia article on the Fort:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

So Wikipedia article is incorrect where it states that it is a -G model then? I didn’t think it was because there was never any mention of chin guns.

[B17Pilot]

Yes it was never a G model. Most likely a typo on the writers part.

[richs26]

[quote user=“Hans von Hammer”]

Hans, this picture is one of an early E model with the remote controlled belly turret of which 112 were made, and with no serial it looks to be a pre-war model. 41-2666 had the regular ball turret.

Right, but what I don’t know, and haven’t been able to find out, is if 41-2666 had a ball turret installed at the factory or if it was retro-fitted after delivery… Pretty much all the B-17s with the prefix of “41” were pre-war, the exceptions being any that had actually hit the assembly line prior to 1 JAN 1942 (unless the S/Ns were based on the US Government’s Fiscal Year, then the S/Ns would’ve started with “42” in Oct 41… The particular photograph though, is kinda tough to call, since the US Insignia is correct for B-17s in 1941-early 1942, however, the lack of red/white “Neutrality Stripes” on the rudder may date it as 1942…

Since the photo is reversed we’re actually seeing the starboard side of the Fort, so the data-plaque with the s/n is on the port side… Without that, we can’t tell what the serial number actually is…

Hans,

the so-called red/white “neutrality” rudder stripes have been a feature of Air Corps planes since being directed by specification since Nov. 1926 and Jan. 1927. They were specified to be removed for combat aircraft in Oct. 1940 when Dark Olive Drab 41 and Neutral Gray 43 became the permanent camouflage colors. P-40’s were the first to be affected so you will see rudder stripes on several squadrons’ aircraft as they left the factory without OD paint, and were repainted later. The radio call sign numbers (FY designator plus serial number-still in use by the AF today for aircraft, vehicles, or eqipment) were specified in Aug. 1941, but weren’t added by the factories til early 1942. The Navy required the rudder stripes for aircraft in use in their theater of operations starting in Jan. 1942 which lasted until May 12, 1942 with the removal of all red colors in markiings. You can find pictures of B-17D’s and E’s with OD and rudder stripes. An excellent reference is Dana Bell’s Air Force Colors set which I picked up a second set 6 months ago from Squadron when they were on sale at $4 a piece.

[Mobius118]

thanks for the info guys, and actually dogfights is were i had first heard about the story about her. im kinda surprised their hasnt been any kits made for it.

[Woody08]

Hey Mobius118 - just happened to come across your forum posts re: Old 666. Per a Google search of images, I came across the below links that may be of interest to you; hope so anyway. Good luck!!

http://gregers.7.forumer.com/a/b17e-of-the-43rd-bomb-group-quotold-666quot_post11628.html

http://gregers.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=11628

[troublemaker66]

“Old 666” was B-17E BO-41-2666 … From Wikipedia:

By 1943 Old 666, tail number 12666, had suffered heavy battle damage and had gained a reputation as a cursed bomber, often coming back from missions with heavy damage. Grounded at Port Moresby Airport, it was parked at the end of the runway where other aircrews could cannibalize it for needed parts. A friend of Zeamer’s said to him, “I know where there’s a bomber, but no one will fly it anymore because every time it goes out it gets shot to hell!”

Captain Zeamer, who had been unable to acquire an aircraft of his own, had the bomber towed out of the ‘bone yard’ and, with enormous effort, not only restored the badly battered aircraft to flight status but made many changes.

They included increasing the number of machine guns from 13 to 19, replacing the waist gunners’ standard single guns with twin guns, replacing all .30 cal machine guns with the larger and more powerful .50 cal, and adding a fixed-position gun that could be fired from the pilot’s station. Zeamer’s crew put guns where they didn’t even need them, and left spare machine guns on the aircraft’s catwalk; if a gun jammed at a critical moment they could dump it and quickly replace it. These modifications made Old 666 the most heavily armed bomber in the Pacific Theater.

They also mounted a gun behind the ball turret near the waist. In the months of missions that followed, Zeamer’s crew was so busy that they never had the time to adorn their bomber with the traditional nose-art, commonly seen on aircraft of that era.

Though many subsequent accounts refer to the bomber as “Lucy,” that was not a title Zeamer and his crew ever used. The only markings the converted B-17G bore was the tail number—the bomber became known simply as Old 666. In May, Zeamer and crew made askip-bombing run on a Japanese aircraft carrier, swooping within fifty feet of its decks.

A few days later on a daylight bombing raid overRabaul, ‘Old 666’ came in so low it was brushing the roofs of the housetops. On a night mission over Wewak, the Japanese gunners on the ground managed to fix the flight of incoming American bombers in the glare of several large searchlights, but, in an audacious display of airmanship, Zeamer dove on the positions, shooting out three and damaging two others.

On a May 5 mission over Madang, ‘Old 666’ was hit more than sixty times by anti-aircraft fire, the stabilizer was shot out and the oxygen tanks exploded, yet the aircraft landed safely and was quickly patched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

So, near as I can tell anyway, a 1/48th conversion would entail using the Revell B-17F “Memphis Belle” kit as a starting point, and getting a B-17E bombardier’s nose built… B-17 Guy and/or B-17 Pilot (both members here) are pretty knowlegeable in that arena… The Revell/Monogram 1/48th B-17G would work too, but require much more surgery in the nose area than the Revell ‘F’…

Here’s the only photo I’ve found that MIGHT be “Old 666”… I can’t be sure although the “greenhouse nose” appears to belong to a “E”…

!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft%20Profiles/B17OLD666.jpg?t=1293367533

With no S/N I can’t be sure… Note also that there isn’t actually a crew hatch on the port side of the rear of the waist compartment, nor are the markings on the wings “backwards” but rather that the negative has been reversed and we’re looking at the starboard side…

Here’s a video with a CGI rendition of “Old 666” in the FWIW Dept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Im086TCu3I&nofeather=True

Hans-

Whered you get that clip? Thats a " Dogfights" episode but with a Brittish narrator…it was just on History International channel last week…just curious.

Len