M47 vs Centurion Mk 5/2

A recent post in the “Armour Trivia” thread contends that the Royal Netherlands Army received Centurion Mk 5/2s instead of more capable M-47s.

I noted that rating the M-47 higher than the Centurion Mk 5/2 was arguable, and open that up to those more knowledgeable than myself after it turns out that Wikipedia agrees that the M-47 was the better tank.

Pertinent facts, I feel, are as follows:

Vehicle Centurion M-47

Weapon L7 105mm M36 90mm

Armour 152mm 101mm

Weight 56 t 46t

Power 650hp 810hp

Height 3.0m 3.35m

Speed 34km/h 48km/h

Clearly, the two tanks aren’t equal. Which would you prefer to be in? In a defensive action, I’d want to be in a Centurion (if I had to be anywhere near the action). My mind is open, but I would think that the Centurion was the more appropriate vehicle for the Royal Netherlands Army at the time.

I agree that on most points listed, the Centurion is superior. One point not shown and which could be the difference is the reliability. The M47 was the result of constant evolution dating to the M26. Automotively it had been proven in two wars. The earlier Centurions probably offered to the Dutch were not armed with the 105mm but with the 20pdr(just specualtion on my part). The Centurion, while it would go on to have a stellar combat record, especially in Israeli hands, did have some automotive issues. Again, using the Israeli example, their powerpacks would be replaced by a more reliable American one. If I had to go into battle, between the two tanks (any variant) I would choose an Israeli modified (re-engined) Centurion myself.

What you have to remember is that the centurion was meant to kill soviet T62s hence thick armor and big gun and what went into production and what was designed were too different models. In the design it weighed almost 10 tons less than production. But in Europe with harder soil (no sand dunes!!) the production engine allowed it to outrun the british comet(one of the fastest British tanks). Now for a brand new tank with only a few minor problems this was great. The M47 on the other hand was upgraded almost every few years and it weighed a lot less which meant that the engine could deliver more power.

What people don’t seem to realize is that the Brits expected the Commies (s’cuse me Russians) to come sweeping down from East Germany so the Centurion was meant to fight from behind fortifications, if any, or in wooded areas with supporting infantry. This meant that the centurion didn’t have to have a high horse power engine.

For what it was designed for, the centurion is a better tank killer

well, since i’m the one who posted this in the trivia area, i’ll try to translate my book to english, and put it together with the wikkipedia translations, be ready in about an hour i think

Exports of the centurion.

Right after ww2 the tankproduction declained and fell almost completely to a halt in 1947.

The allies of the superpowers where supplied with free shermans and t34’s

With the outbreak of the korean war tension grew and in 1951 the us decidet to equip their allies with newer weapons.

At this time there were two main country’s wich produced tanks.

The us and gb.

Althought the material would be loaned, free of charge, every country tried to get their hands on the expensive and modern us tanks.

Although the us army thought of this as a good idea, becaus of logistical reasons. Every country same ammo, petrol parts etc, congres decidet to make us of brittish capacity.

So the us ordered the centurion from the brittish to give to the allies wich where thought of as less capable in military terms. Such as the netherlands and denmark.

Country’s with a bigger and better army receaved the m47, such as france, italy, Spain and belgium.

Also country’s wich purchased their own tanks had to buy the centurion as the us couldn’t deliver more tanks.

Such as canada, south africa and new zealand, but also neutral states such as sweden and switserland.

So the export succes of the centurion wasn’t becaus it was such a good tank. Becaus in many country’s the centurion was the second choise… but it was the only thing for sale.

With the exeption of Australia wich was the First country to buy the centurion.

The uk also gave the centurion to their own old colony’s such as jordan, egypt, irak, India Singapore, and kuweit.

Israel also became an important export country.

In Total around 3400 centurions were exported.

As this was goin on, the centurion was becoming obsolite.

So all the above country’s tried to sell them to third World country’s such as africa and the rest of the middle east.

Dutch centurions,

The netherlands First got their First centurions in 1953 as a loan. Until 1956 they would get 591 tanks.

The Dutch would have wantet the m47 but where happy with the centurion as it was a big update over the sherman and ram tanks.

Everyone of the 4 divisions got one armoured brigade with two bataljons, and there would be a tank bataljon at HQ, making a Total of 9 times 53 tanks.

For modern standarts this wasn’t much but the Dutch worked with mechanized or motorized infantery divisions so from that point of vieuw it was a big deal if you could equip 2 bataljons with modern tanks, as good armoured as the feared german king tiger.

A disadvandage was the high patrol use and is was more difficult to maintain as expected. Replacing an engine would tanke a full day.

The Dutch also receaved 44 centurion arv mkII, later they would buy another 22.

In the 60’s the brits announced that there would be no spare parts produced. This was a unplasend surprise, bus as a compenstation the brits offered 67 new mk7’s for loan, (of course still payd for by the americans) this would mean that the newer tanks would be in service and the older tanks canibalised for parts.

This solution didn’t please the Dutch and when the First 33 arrived they where send back saying that the parts weren’t interchangeble.

This was only to put preasure on the brittish to not make this deal.

As a result of this the mk7’s where delivered to switserland.

But in the meanwhile the Dutch had to face the possibillaty that their entire tank fleet had to be replaced, a special Dutch/belgium comite was formded to look for a new tank together.

This way they hoped to keep the kosts as low as possible.

The former brittish deal with the mk7’s was thought of to make the Dutch buy the new chieftain in the future.

But the low country’s had more ambitions and joined the german-american attemt to make a super tank.

But this would fail as the mbt-70.

There where at this time newspaper messages that the centurion was completely obsolite in 1966.

There where problems with introducing the chieftain in the brittish army and as a result of this parts for the centurion where manufactured until 1972.

The Dutch decidet that their centurions needet a bigger gun to compete with the t54, but is was difficult to find a budget for this.

The economy grew hard in this period so the us stopped funding the Dutch army.because of this they only upgradet some 275 tanks in 1967.

So that 2 tanks in every squad where upgradet.

Of course in combat this would give logistical problems with the ammo.

In the late 60’s the structure in the Dutch army was chanched and the motorized troops where now mechanised forces. But the tank battaljons remained the same.

Only they where distributed different among the new army.

The relative slow centurion was not suited for this kind of warfare so the Dutch retrofitted the patrol engines for more efficiënt diesel engines and automatic gear boxes. The mobilitie was up, but it wasn’t enough.

In 1968 the Dutch ordered 415 leopard 1 tanks

And with the tensions in prague they ordered 53 more.

The centurion remained in active duti until mid 80’s

the dutch centurions where the mk5’s with 20pdr

after that they were the mk5/2 with the l7 105mm gun. wich is also on the leopard1

Remember the M47 was an interim tank that the US only used for a realitive blink of an eye. They were available to friendly nations at bargin basement prices (I think they were “loaned” for free). If a nation is trying to re-equip its army after a resource draining world war, free tanks are just the thing.

Well as for me it would be the M-47,due to it speed manuveriblity also it fire power.If you are going by the eras that this two tanks where in then you would have found out at the time the centurion had a 20 pounder and not the 105.Also the centurion was made to take on the german tiger I and II’s.The centurion came out just a few weeks before the war ended.It also did not have the 105 gun till the early 60’s.So to me the choice is clear the M-47,Digger.

I well remember the power pac issues with the British tank (they all seem to have that same issue by the way). We had a couple different engines on the dynos calibrating the CD-850 transmissions to them (same gearbox the M-47, M-48, M-60 used). I don’t think they used the Lycombing twelve cylinder engine, but used something completely different. Still I think the Isrealies tried to standardize all their power pacs in Western hulls. They did do a conversion on the T-55 / T62 hulls. It used the XTG411 (dash something) transmission out of the M109’s that had many internal mods for taking more horsepower. Don’t remember what engine was used, but it may have been an eight cylinder Detroit Deisel.

gary

Remember that the Patton series were designed, intially, to defeat King Tigers and maybe IS2s. The Centurion V/ II was designed to defeat T-54s and T-55s, a task which, in the middle east, it fulfilled admirably.

For four years in the mid-1960s, my father commanded the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment of the British Army, which, at the time, was equipped with Centurion V/ IIs and, later, VIIIs. 2 or 3 times a year, we used to do exercises on the Luneburg Heath against Bundeswehr tank regiments equipped with M47s.

The Germans always used to play the Sovs, so we were, initally at least, always on the defence, so that may have given us an advantage. I can’t think of a single instance when they didn’t get their a*se handed to them.

Of course, you have to take into account the fact that the Brits were professional soldiers, while the Germans were, for the most part, conscripts who would rather not have been there, but, generally, I cannot think of a single way in which a regiment of late-mark Centurions wouldn’t wipe the floor against a regiment of M47s. Bear in mind that the Centurion served, in a number of serious armies, well into the 1980s while, by the early 1970s, only 3rd world armies (and maybe the Italians) were using the M47 as front-line equipement.

Even today, the Royal Netherlands Army is better equipped than the Armee de la Terre. Late-mark Leopards against Leclercs. Anyone for the Leclercs? [xx(]

Cheers,

Chris.