ITC Schooners

Modeling Subjects Ships
1

I have two ITC plastic schooner kits, #3702-8 500 “Waterwitch” (1963), and #3719 Yacht Atlantic (date n/a). The Atlantic kit is said to be 1/8" to 1" or 1:96 scale and 28-1/2"OAL. It is a three masted schooner, and may have been issued with a DC motor at one time. The Waterwitch has no scale listed, and is a two masted schooner said to be 27-1/2" OAL. It was apparently part of ITC’s “New Marine Masterpiece” Series.The hulls of these two kits are identical, and the decks nearly so. It is fairly obvious that the Atlantic was an adaptation of the original Waterwitch molds/kit.

Both kits are listed in John Burns Collectors’ Value Guide as mid '60s ITC issues using the Ringo logo. The C-5000 Atlantic Yacht w/s is listed as 1:96 scale, while the C-5001 Water Witch (sic) Schooner w/s is listed as being 1:128 scale. Both are also listed under the ITC Model Craft logo with the #3719.2 Yacht Atlantic w/s again listed as 1:96 scale, but with no scale listed for the #3708.2 Schooner Waterwitch w/s.

Can anyone else shed any light on these kits?

2

I am not familiar with the “Waterwitch”, but I have built the “Atlantic”, and 1/96 sounds like the right scale to me, she would have been 228’ overall, and considering that she used the masts from three “J” boats, that sounds reasonable. Waterwitch, listed at 1/128 scale, would be 293.33 feet overall!, “just a bit large” for a two masted schooner. I don’t have the actual measurements for “Atlantic” to verify scale, but I would suspect that both kits were actually “Box Scale”, and that the “Waterwitch”, was the spinoff of the “Atlantic”. The lines of the hull, are in agreement with the concept of “Atlantic’s” design as a cruiser/racer.

3

Yes, I have both of these in storage too. The ‘Atlantic’ model is a pretty good representation of the actual ship (for its day!), and the ‘Water Witch’ is simply the same hull and just about the same deck, as I recall) with a two-masted rig, and doesn’t really represent any particular schooner as a result. The Atlantic model was issued both as a motorized and unmotorized version. Scale for both is pretty much a crapshoot.

4

While researching another schooner I came across this title and bough a copy, this is about the best read I’ve had in some time. It deals with the last great transocean race deling with schooners and yachts. “The Kaiser Cup” in 1905. As you may know the Atlantic kicked serious tail in that race.

http://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-Last-Great-Race-Princes/dp/0471410764/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199281045&sr=8-1

The books deals with the fitting out of the vessles and the men/ owners who owned them.

5

Hi all,

I know that this thread is quite old but its one of the very few which is about these ITC-kits. So I thought its the best to go on.

Some time ago I bought the "Atlantic"kit and I thought that these days might be a good time to start it.

As always I started with a search for more details. I found lots of pics of the new replica ship. But it seems to have less paint details than the original.

I found not so good original pics and tons of words about the ships good and bad times til its end.

But what I could not find are really good old detail pics of the bow and stern area. On the kits hull all these details do exist.

The instructions talk about gold painted filigree, about a golden stripe above portholes, a white water line and a copper red underwater hull and so on.

Same problem with other parts of the paint sceme. For example silver for the davits, window frames and other parts.

But was it really like that ?

Ready built kits and/or prefabricated models do show significant different colors like a simple red underwater hull. And on the Atlantic website is a drawing with a green hull which is also very attractive. Red, green … but whats about the copper ?

If it had a steel hull was it also covered with copper ? Thinking of contact corrosion between these two metals.

Or was it simply painted with an anti-corrosion paint. Then we are just talking about a certain shade of red (or maybe green).

I suppose within its seven decades of life it was painted in different ways.

Was the black hull above waterline with a shiny, glossy finish like todays yachts or was it some kind of semimatte dull ?

Do exist pics which show the original 1903/5 colors clearly and where can I find them ?

Much older ships seem to have better documentation than this one. If not in color maybe in black and white as long as they show details ? Or a good old fashioned marine painting ?

Thanks a lot

Markus

6

I can’t answer all these questions, but I can point out some useful directions.

There’s a great deal of photographic information about this ship in the library of the Mariners’ Museum in Newport News, Virginia, where I used to work. I haven’t done any digging about the Atlantic in more than thirty years, but I remember looking in awe at some of the really good, black-and-white prints we had on file. One feature that sticks in my mind particularly: the teak weather decks were held in place by thousands of polished, round-headed screws driven through holes in the steel deck beams from the bottom up. No plank fastenings were visible from above.

The last few feet of the ship’s stern is also in the MM. I remember the day when we got it. The old ship had sunk at her moorings in Portsmouth, on the other side of Hampton Roads, and was in the process of being scrapped. (This must have been in 1982 or 1983.) Metro Machine, the company that had the scrapping contract, saved the extreme stern, and my boss and I went over there (on a freezing, damp winter day) with a truck to get it.

Nearby was a pile of scrap wood, which was being burned. I rescued a small piece of teak deck plank; it’s still in my office. I fantasize about building a half-model of the ship out of it - someday…

Bluejacket makes a solid-hull wood Atlantic kit. I haven’t seen it, but the photos in the company’s printed catalog and website are impressive: http://www.bluejacketinc.com/2006/atlantic.jpg .

I’m confident that Bluejacket would sell you a set of the plans and instructions. I have no idea of the scale of the ITC kit; maybe some of the BJ fittings would work as well.

There is, to my knowledge, no such thing as a copper-plated steel (or iron) hull. There would be no point to it. I assume the *Atlantic’*s bottom was painted with anti-fouling paint; what color it was I have not idea. I’ve seen green anti-fouling paint, but dark red (like in the BJ photos) seems more likely off the top of my head. “Copper” anti-fouling paint has copper in it, all right, but it turns into a dark red before it dries.

Hope that helps at least a little. If you can make it to Newport News, you’ll find a lot of valuable stuff in the MM Library - and you can look at a little bit of the ship herself.

Good luck.

7

Ringo sold ITC’s kits after that company went out of business. Ringo is however a difficult Google search for the obvious reasons.

8

Thanks a lot for your answers

Ringos kit is from 1966. Its the same box with a different logo.

The bluejacket kit seems to be a wonderful kit.
It is exactly the same size/scale as the ITC kit.

There is no need of plans as I do have already a big blueprint of the Atlantic kit.
Blueprints unfortunately dont show colors.

Thanks for sharing your memories about the end of this great ship.
There are a few websites which show exactly what you wrote:
http://ckdboats.blogspot.de/2009/05/sailing-shipthe-atlantic.html
http://yachtpals.com/schooner-atlantic-yacht-9173

I would love to visit the Mariners’ Museum.
But the distance of about 7000 miles is a little too much for the next weekend.
Google maps said there is no direct route available. Probably too much water.

So I used the searching and browsing functions on the museums website but got no results.
To specify that … I had lots of results … but no pics.
Maybe they had no time to digitalize the pics you talked about and to post them.
Or its my fault and I didnt look in the correct way.

I have the impression that over the years several parts/deckhouses were changed in size or function and it would be great to find out if this kit is an early version.

Maybe one of you has a direct link where I could find detail pics ?

9

Those shots of the ship being scrapped really take me back. My boss and I got there a few days after those pictures were taken; by then the only recognizable part left was the extreme stern, which we rescued.

That full-sized replica looks pretty spectacular. I’m always a little skeptical, though, of how closely such replicas really resemble the originals. One problem is that a functioning yacht has to comply with safety and navigational regulations that weren’t in force when the original Atlantic was built. I do wonder whether the new version uses that same luxurious technique for fastening down the deck planks.

I believe Ringo only existed for a year or two; it sticks in my memory that it was set up specifically to get rid of the existing stock from ITC, which had gone out of business.

10

In my somewhat limited experience- BJ usually has a narrative about color somewhere in their instruction book.

11

Hi, I just recently acquired the ITC model of the yacht Atlantic. But the assembly plans are missing. I am trying in vain to find them on the Internet. Do you have the plans to this model. I will gladly pay you to print for me a useful copy of these plans. Or perhaps you could advise me on where to search for them. Many thanks, Bob

12

Hi Bob, no problem !
These old instructions are printed as a booklet in a strange size larger than half letter size.
When you unfold them they are too large for a normal scanner.

So I can scan them for you just page by page as the booklet is made.
This will be 16 pages as PDF-documents in a very good quality.
You will get these via email and would have to print them on yourself …
or use them on your computer screen where you could zoom into the details.

And for another modeler this is of course for free ! No costs !

Just show us some nice pics of the making or of the finished model.

I could also make a copy but the shipping will need a few days more time to reach you.

Just send me a personal message with your email and tell me what you need.
Markus

13

The reference to “copper red” is an old-fashioned one. It was used, in its time, as a way to differentiate between that paint and red-lead. Adding copper compounds to paint is significantly simpler than applying sheets of copper (or copper-containing metal, like Muntz) to a ship’s hull to prevent sea life adhering (or teredo worm boring in wooden hull ships). Both white lead and red lead had long histories in shipyards (and still do, to some extent).

14

“Copper bottom paint” started into use in the late nineteenth century - first, I believe on small vessels like yachts. I imagine there were several varieties, but it was used on both metal and wood hulls. And it became popular pretty quickly - on big ships as well as little ones. At the moment I’m working on a Gloucester fishing schooner from about 1912. She had an all-wood hull, with copper bottom paint.

I used the actual stuff once or twice in the restoration of old models in the museum where I used to work. (I bought it from a marine supply store down the road.) When it’s brushed on, it looks like bright copper. Within an hour, the paint dries, the metallic appearance disappears, and the paint looks dark, brownish red.

The Model Shipways paint line includes a color that’s intended for that purpose: http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MS4814 . I bought a jar, and it looks just about like I remember that old paint looking. I intend to use it on my schooner model.

Dark red bottoms, however, aren’t universal. I’ve seen plenty of examples of green-painted bottoms, and some of the big twentieth-century sailing merchantmen had underwater hulls that could only be described as (shudder) pink. My suggestion, though, is that in the absence of any contrary evidence, dark, brownish red is the best way to go.

15

Hi Markus,

Gosh, wow, this is fantastic news. What to do? I suppose the PDF-documents would be the clearest images. Gee! Um. Would the printed copy you would make be on the smallish side of useable instructions. Or just ordinary and since you say they come out as half sheets would I have to cut up and tape them together to make one sheet at a time? I trust in your judgement as to the best idea. I am only too glad to pay for your valuable time and shipping if you decde that is best. My email is : milkabob22@gmail.com

Thanks mega,

Bob

16

Hi Bob,

please use the edit-button and remove your email in your post above. I saved it already.
Everyone can read it and send you SPAM. Its for your own safety.

Next time please use the personal message.
On the left, clicking on my avatar pic, another window will open.
There you will find in the middle the personal message-button.
You can send a direct message which is only visible for you and me.

Back to the instructions:
The problem of the instructions old paper format is that it is 35,5cm x 25,5cm.
Thats 14 x 10 inches … in each dimension 3 or 4" larger than letter sized paper.
And also way too large to fit on a normal scanner or copy machine.

The booklet is made of four of these oversized sheets, stapled in the center and folded.
This way it forms a 16 page instructions booklet, size 7x10"

Its printed like an oldfashioned book or newspaper.
You find on each sheet 4 very different pages printed.
For example page 1, 2 , 15, 16 are on one sheet … or 5, 6, 11, 12 on another.
(Take apart a newspaper and you can see easily what I mean.)

I will make scans on a normal scanner page by page from 1 to 16.
As I told you before you will receive them as PDFs to view them on your screen
and /or print them on your own computer.

I also could printcopy these easily, page by page, on paper and send the 16 prints by snailmail.
Also no problem. But lets wait how you can live with the PDFs.

Up to this point I can make all this for you on a normal office copy/scan-machine … no costs at all !

You will receive very good copies / scans as sharp as the original, all files will have the correct pages number, and you will be able to build the model as good as with the original instructions…

And with the possibility to zoom the PDFs you can see them even way larger and better than the original.

I say lets start with the scans … thats the easiest thing … check your email

Markus