Courtesy of my man Yoda, we have found a pic of what appears to be a modified M4A4, with counterweight, add on armor plate, stamped idler and open spokes. I was hoping to continue the discussion as to whether I can depict the Tasca Firefly based on this reference?
Can a Shermie guru do an analysis on these pics and confirm that it once was a Firefly?
http://users.telenet.be/M7.Priest/foto/sherman10.jpg
http://users.telenet.be/M7.Priest/foto/Sherman10b.jpg
regards,
Steve
Steve: that’s absolutely an ex-Firefly. The sealed hull MG port, the gun lock crutch on the engine deck, the extended radio bustle on the turret rear, the hatch support for the added loader’s hatch – all confirm that it’s an M4A4 with Firefly upgrades — and this is the FIRST time I’ve seen the open spoked wheels on an M4A4! Whoa!!!
So Roy,
What do think about the track? isn’t this early Sherman track?
Steve
Hmmm… that’s unusual. Most M4A4s, including the earliest production tanks, left the factory with T48 or T62 or T54 tracks. The ones on this sample look like T41 tracks (maybe T51 reversibles).
It’s possible that the T41s were added later by whatever authority was hauliing it out to the target range
Besides all that…look at that shade of green that is in remnants all over the tank! [(-D]
Steve I think you are now thoroughly obligated to repllicate this range target…but I’d recommend using one of the older DML Firefly Vc kits to do it. [;)]
It is intresting, but I’m sure it’s painted a “brighter” color for ease in spotting. I’m voting the tracks were replaced as either part of a failed restoration or just cause they needed something to get it out onto the range…
Well, I was zooming in on details in these pictures last night. I noticed the very rough nature of the counter weight, its surface,position and the welding. The weld beads are quite pronounced on the add on armor as well. I will replicate that.
Bill: I’m gonna have to pass on the range hulk model, but I will give this one some new life.
As for the tracks and such…I don’t know about you guys, but when I was an Army tanker, we didn’t spend a whole lot of time changing out tracks on the junk in the PDO yard. Most hard targets were HET’d to the range and then “dragged” literally out to position by the M88. Some didn’t even have tracks, and the ones that did couldn’t be counted on to be towed several Klicks out to the range. SAme goes for painting for better visibility? The whole idea in tank gunnery is to simulate your enemy, so I think that idea is out as well. I can’t recall ever doing that. I mean it is possible that it was candy caned for a special test but…I dunno, just speculating here.
Anyway a special thanks goes out to Yoda who spent some time digging until he found the open spokes on a Firefly. And more importantly, another lesson for the learned professorship of armored scholars: “just when your sure you’ve seen it all.”…[%-)]
Steve
I don’t even think that light green is even paint. To me it seems like it has just become covered in moss or lichen while its been sitting there.
Wow, go figure. I’m glad you these photos prior to completing your Firely with the stamped wheels. Its interesting that the third wheel back on the right side looks to be stamped. Although this one does not have spoked idlers, I’ve definitely seen others with them.
Hi Steve
I`m glad i could be of some help on this subject, i also found this one but the road wheels are not as clear but thought i would send to see what you think. Alan
Yoda: That last photo you posted is most likely a Firefly IC – note that it’s based on an M4 chassis and not M4A4.
Hi T26E4
Posted this mainly because there seemed to be some disagreement about the counter weight on the back of the turret. The photo seemed to show the five spocked road wheel & weight better. Steve was looking through google & typed in Sherman Firefly & founded tht a lot of them had mixed road wheels, may that`s an idea??? good luck Alan.
No – thanks for adding to the discussion. Steve and I have been corresponding about the likelihood of spoked wheels on Firefly VCs (he’s building the Tasca kit and is wondering which wheels to use). I cited that your pic was an IC because many of the M4s had spoked wheels and this info wouldn’t aid Steve. That’s all. Best rgrds, RC
So…was the counterweight one cast block of “whatever” steel? The range target seems to have a very coarse textured weight, the Ic photo looks cast but not has rough. Maybe because it has a coat of OD???
Steve
??? I’m sorry, What’s the diffrent between a Firefly and a sherman, they both look the same to me?
The Firefly is a British conversion of a Sherman, either an M4A4 (Sherman V) or M4 (Sherman 1, welded or hybrid), which has been up-gunned with the British 17pdr (76.2mm) gun. Part on the conversion required the re-positioning of the radio in an armoured extension to the turret. The hull m/g position was also eliminated and plated over to allow for ammo stowage.
Steve: the block behind the turret bustle isn’t a counterweight. It was an armored box for the radio which had to be repositioned further aft due to the recoil of the 17pdr QF. They cut a hole in the rear of the 75mm radio bustle. They welded slabs together to form a box behind the bustle and then they emplaced the new radio back there. Go here for some various Firefly pics:
http://www.tanxheaven.com/ljs/fireflyljs/fireflyljs.htm
Here’s the radio
From other photos, you see the radio box slabs aren’t as pitted. I’d say the pitted slabs are due to corrosion. They weren’ t cast slabs. HTH
Firefly,Klein-Willebroek.JPG)
Thank you for taking the time Roy, it is appreciated. I’m trying to educate myself on period allied armor…(sort of an oxymoron statement for an ex-Army tanker!)…
I would like to thank all the contributors to this thread, my hat is off to all those that know.
regards,
Steve
T26E4 Hi
About the box on the back of the turret, i stand corrected about this. But if that is the case would it not act as a weight due to the length of the 17 pounder.
Just like the U.S M10 which had to have extra weights on the back of the turret due to the to the main gun. This is not ment to cause a heated discussion by any means its was just a thought?. But am i right with the wheels?.[#oops]
While the radio box would act as a counterweight, this was an added bonus effect and not its intended purpose.