Imai Golden Hind 1/70

Ahhhhhh, that’s right…I remember your paper sails, Rob. They look great!

As soon as I read your suggestion, I remembered I have some old parchment paper…so I crumpled the heck out of a piece until it was soft like a napkin (took a few minutes!), then I rolled and folded it up until it was something similar to a furled sail…I then tied a series of lines around it to hold it to the yard, and voila!..here’s my attempt at a paper furled spritsail…I know it doesn’t look great, but I basically just whipped it together in like 15 minutes, as a temporary example…

I would like some feedback, though, from anyone who wants to say “hey Dave, that’s great!”, or “Hey Dave, that looks fake and here’s why!”…

Rob, I get the feeling your suggestion was more in the direction of using paper to make set sails? I like that idea, too, and I think i may go that way the next time I try set sails, but for now…

Anyone have any suggestions for improvement?

THX

Dave

All right Dave… It looks great, but…

I don’t know, just seems a little too symmetrical to me, a little too neat if you know what I mean. When sails were furled they weren’t really “rolled” up ( as I understand it ) , but gathered. This might be really difficult to duplicate, although I have seen some done that looked very authentic, but I think they were cloth. [whish I had bookmarked them]

Hope this helps w/ out sounding too negative.[:$]

Well, since you asked, Dave…

In a sixteenth-century ship the furling process brings the clews (lower corners) of the sail up toward the center of the yard. This results in two things that are of interest to the modeler. First, the furled sail forms a bundle that’s considerably fatter in the middle than at the ends of the yard. Second, a little bit each clew is left sticking out of the bundle, with the sheet and clewline (meaning, in the case of a large sail, their blocks) attached to it.

I think I may have mentioned earlier that, during this period (and apparently until pretty late in the eighteenth century) the topsails were furled by gathering them up into bundles in the middle and lashing the bundles up in front of the lower mastheads. I haven’t been able to find a picture on the web that really shows this clearly, but here’s a view of the replica ships at Jamestown that comes close:

http://www.xplormor.com/wp-content/uploads/galleries/post-5589/Jamestown%20Settlement%20(7).jpg

The drawings from the John Harland book, to which 1943Mike kindly linked us, also demonstrate the process.

The Discovery, in the foreground of the photo, has her one and only topsail furled in authentic fashion. The reason for that system is pretty obvious: that little yard is so small that it probably couldn’t sustain the weight of men crawling out along it to furl the sail. (The footrope hadn’t been invented yet.)

I’ve posted my own favorite trick for making furled sails (silkspan tissue painted with a mixture of white glue and acrylic paint, softened up at the last minute with water) several times in the Forum. In the unlikely event that anybody’s interested, here’s an excerpt from one of those earlier posts:

Ok, here goes. To discuss this topic thoroughly would require more space than anybody wants me to take up in this forum, but I’ll try to write a relatively brief outline.

The first thing to do is get a clear understanding of what happens to the spars and rigging when the sails are furled. There’s more to it than simply replacing the “set” sails with furled ones.

In the typical eighteenth-century square-rigged ship the only yards that are fixed in position vertically are the lower yards (i.e., the fore, main, and crossjack yards). All the others slide up and down the masts - up when the sails are set, down when the sails are furled. (The quickest way for a ship modeler to demonstrate a failure to understand rigging is to put bare yards, or yards with furled sails on them, in the raised positions.) If the sails are furled (or left off), the topsail yard should be resting on the lower cap (or nearly so), the topgallant yard on the topmast cap, and the royal yard on the collar of the topgallant stay. Lowering the yards in itself changes the appearance of the model significantly - and, to the eye of an experienced ship enthusiast, improves it.

Another error lots of modelers commit is to make the “bundles” of the furled sails too big. A real furled sail is remarkably compact - usually a bit SMALLER in diameter than the yard to which it’s attached. If you stand on a pier behind a ship with furled sails, you probably won’t be able to tell whether the sails are there or not.

Almost any material used for scale model sailmaking is, by definition, too thick. With furled sails, though, it’s possible to compensate for that problem by reducing the sail’s depth - and thus the size of the bundle.

My favorite material for furled sails is “silkspan” tissue, subjected to a special (but quite simple) treatment. Silkspan can be found in the flying model airplane department of any good hobby shop - for very reasonable prices. I find that the thinnest grade of silkspan used by the airplane builders works well for larger sails. For the smaller ones I pay a visit to the local camera store and buy a package of lens-cleaning tissue. This stuff seems to be about the same material, but finer. The drawback to it is that it only comes in small sheets.

I start out by taping a piece of tissue over some sort of frame (a small cardboard box works fine) and painting it with a mixture of water-soluble hobby paint (I like PolyScale), Elmer’s white glue, and water. The color should be a pale greyish beige. (PolyScale makes a railroad color called “weathered concrete” that looks about right to my eye.) The proportions of paint to glue to water aren’t critical. I generally apply the mixture with a cheap foam brush from the hardware store. The tissue will sag a bit as it gets painted, but the cardboard box will stop it from drooping back on itself and creating a useless mess.

When the painted tissue is dry it’s stiff and smooth; the fuzzy original texture of the silkspan is gone. I then use a fine pencil to lay out the shape of the sail. I make that shape a trapezoid, with the long axis identical to the scale width of the sail but the depth considerably less. (Again, that ratio isn’t critical, but half the scale depth would be about right.) The reason for the trapezoidal shape is that (assuming I’m working on an eighteenth- or early-nineteenth-century square sail) I want the finished bundle to be fatter in the middle than at the ends. While I’m laying it out in pencil I also lay out a narrow hem on each side. Then I cut the sail out and, using white glue again, glue a piece of fine rigging thread (the boltrope) around the edge, and fold and glue the hem over it. (The hem isn’t authentic, but it strengthens the sail and will be barely detectable on the finished product.) Then, using a small needle and thread, I fasten the sail to the yard - or, if the ship dates from after about 1820, the jackstay on top of the yard. I then rig the various lines that are attached to the sail - clewlines, buntlines, leechlines, sheets, tacks, etc.

At this point the yard/sail/rigging assembly looks pretty stupid. But now comes the trick. I touch the sail with a brush that’s been dampened in water. For some reason (I don’t entirely understand it), the water softens up the white glue but doesn’t affect the paint. The sail takes on the consistency of a thin sheet of rubber, which can be bundled up by hauling on the appropriate rigging lines and teased into authentic-looking wrinkles and creases. It takes me a while to rig the gaskets that hold it in that condition; if the sail starts drying out before I’m finished I dab on a little more water.

When the water evaporates, the sail is remarkably stiff and durable. I have a couple models whose sails I rigged this way more than twenty years ago, and they look good as new.

I find it much easier to do all this off the model. I generally clamp a piece of wood dowel in a vise on my bench and secure the yard temporarily to that. When the furled sail has dried out I transfer the yard to the model and secure the ends of all the rigging lines appropriately.

That’s the short version. I suspect nobody wants the long one. Hope this helps.

I think that method would work beautifully on a kit like yours. On the other hand, your spritsail looks like a success as it is. But remember that the clewlines and sheets would be rigged whenever the sail was on the yard - furled or unfurled. They’re numbered 8 and 10 in the German drawing you posted earlier. Note that the clewline goes through a block on the yard. The block is at the point to which the clew of the sail would be hauled up.

Hope that helps a little. That model is shaping up superbly.

Thanks, Guys!

Honestly, I’m seeing this as an opportunity to exercise patience and learn something new, instead of my knee-jerk mindset, which is more of a “well, we’re almost done with this build, let’s just get it finished and slap the sails on.”…

If I do the rest of the sails just as I did that spritsail, I think I’ll feel like a student who just wants to get through his last final quickly after a week of diligent test-taking…but I think I’ll regret not trying for a better result.

I’ll at least give it a couple more attempts at some other techniques, see what I can accomplish, and what I like best.

Dave, it’s none of my business, of course, but I’d urge you to fiddle around with your sailmaking techniques and sail rigging a little more. My reason for taking that liberty is simply that the model so far looks so good. It will be spectacular when it’s finished - and more so if the rigging and sails are up to the same standards as the rest. I don’t think you’ll ever regret a minute you spend making this one as good as you can make it.

The method I’ve suggested (not the only legitimate one, by any means) really isn’t significantly more difficult or time-consuming than lots of stuff you’ve already done. And I don’t think I’m alone in thinking I’d like to see what you do with it.

You’re into the home stretch with this model. Hang in there and keep giving it your best shot.

Dave,

I agree with Prof Tilley, you got a good start and part of this hobby is the fun of experimenting and trying something different. Even as is, the furled sail you have is far better and compliments the model than using the plastic, blow molded ones that come in the kit or trying to use cloth, which ends up being horribly out of scale.

Scott

Dave…to give some proper reassuring feedback…I would suggest you forgo using the exact size of the sail to be modeled when in the furled position. Many make the mistake of simply rolling up the sail as a cigarette…leaving blunted ends. You want the sail to reef rom the edge taperingly…so it is necessary to cut the sail in a altered fashion so it furls more protypically. You do not need the entire sail to replicate a furled sail…not if you want it to look proportional and natural. Full sails need no description since they are full and are required to be so.

Rob

Thanks for the encouragement, you guys!

I’m definitely going to try a few different ideas before I decide on how to proceed.

I can’t find silkspan anywhere (even eBay doesn’t have it!), so I did a little cursory search, and read somewhere that silkspan is basically the same material as teabags are made from, so I thought, “hey, maybe coffee filter paper?”…so I sit here with parchment, printer paper, and a few coffee filters (which happen to be wide enough when flattened to reach the length of the widest sail from this kit!)…they are all in various stages of crumple, and I will spend some time working with each and trying a few techniques to see if I can tease them into a suitable form.

Now I’m on a mission to experiment and see what I can find that best works for me.

So far, some type of paper seems to be the best bet.

I’m glad to have found the ambition to expand my skills in this area, instead of just saying “good enough”…

Thanks again!

I’ll update when I find some useful data!

Dave

Nah…I just use simple copier paper…draw out the sail…pencil in the seam lines and stiching…possibly the leach lines…then crumple…crumple…crumple…well…crumple.

Perfect sails and soft…almost cloth like.

Good luck.

Rob

We took up the disappearance of silkspan in a thread a few months back. The bottom line is that the stuff apparently is indeed off the market. But replacement substances are available.

I think the coffee filters will work fine. As I noted in that earlier thread, at least one kit manufacturer has supplied coffee filters for that purpose. If they’re big enough for the largest of your sails, you’re in business.

On this particular model you only have six sails to worry about. That German drawing is a good guide to how they’d be furled - with one exception.

The key lines in determining the shapes of the furled sails are the clewlines, which are numbered 10 on the drawing. The clew of the sail gets hauled right up to the block on the yard, forming the start of the bundle.

I’d cut the fore- and mainsails, and the spritsail, as shallow trapezoids.The two topsails are more complicated. They need to be shaped sort of like a T, so a really skinny bundle lies along the yard and a big fat bundle gets lashed to the lower masthead.

For some reason the German drawing doesn’t show the rigging of the lateen mizzen. Two to four lines on each side, called brails, would haul the bottom of it up to blocks on the yard. The resulting bundle would be a little fatter in the middle, but not much. I’d cut that one as a wide, shallow triangle,

Your other problem, if you want to use the “painted and glued silkspan” trick, is that PolyScale paint is off the market. I think the acrylic paints sold in craft stores (and even at Walmart-Mart) would work just as well. (I particularly like a brand called Ceramcoat.) Those paints are sold in a huge variety of colors - and they’re incredibly cheap. I suggest a dull pale grey, with a hint of tan. Add a small bottle of old-fashioned Elmer’s white glue and have at it.

Good luck. I’m really looking forward to seeing this model in its finished state.

Thanks for the info, John!

I’m not sure how much rigging detail I’ll get into with the sails, but I suppose installing the clews will at least make the sails look like they are actually part of the ship, and not just some material strapped to the yard.

Let’s see if I have the basics of installation sequence correct:

I’ll add a couple of blocks for the clewlines onto the yards, close to the center? 1/3rd of the way from center?

Cut out the sails, paint/glue them, and let them dry.

Attach clewlines to the sails corners.

Attach the sails to the yards with a running stitch or robbands.

THEN, attach the yard/sail to the mast.

Soften sail with some water, and form into a bundle/furl.

Then fasten into shape with gaskets tied around the sail/yard.

Final shaping of sail material while still damp.

I think that’s more or less the sequence I’ll be following? And of course, in the meantime I’ll practice some different styles of furling on a jig to see what I can come up with. Not sure about gathering them up around the masts, in the shape of 2 Js, but I will work on getting the bundles fatter in the center…

Got a lot of learning to do this weekend!

D

Dave, you’ve just about got it.

There are a few more lines that you probably want to deal with, though: the sheets. They hold the lower corners of the sails down to the yard below (or, if there is no yard below, to the ship’s hull).

In that German drawing, the sheets are numbered #8. The spritsail sheets have blocks and pendants; they run from the clew of the sail to some belaying point on the hull near the bow. The fore and main sheets run from the clews of the fore- and mainsails aft; they probably would have pendants and blocks as well. It was typical for the standing end of the running part of the sheet to be seized or spliced to an eyebolt in the side of the hull, and the hauling end to pass through a hole in the bulwark and get belayed to a kevel or cleat.

The topsail sheets are single ropes. They run from the clews of the sails, down through blocks on the ends of the yard, then through blocks near the center of the yard, then to belaying pins in the fiferails.

The sheet for the lateen mizzen (also numbered #8 on the German drawing) is a simple tackle that runs from the clew of the sail to a belaying point at the very after end of the poop deck. Sometimes there’s a long pole, called an outrigger or a boomkin, that sticks out of the stern and lets the sheet get hauled even further aft. (I can’t tell whether your model has a boomkin or not; the German drawing doesn’t.)

Then there are the fore and main tacks - simple, single lines that run forward from the clews to the rails forward of the mast. They’re numbered #9 on the German drawing, though the angle of the drawing makes them a little hard to see.

The spritsail has no tacks - for obvious reasons.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you’ve got a copy of the Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Susan Constant. The drawings in it should make all of this clear.

The rigging of this ship really is remarkably simple - and there’s not a lot of repetition. And the scale is big and roomy. Anybody who’s seen your other models will find it ludicrously obvious that you’re up to a good rigging job on this one. (If you take on that Heller Ship That Shall Not Be Named, you’ll get a real dose of what a mess seventeenth-century rigging can be.)

It looks to me like you’re a week - or less - away from having this model finished. And it’s going to be spectacular.

Here goes nothing.

I tried my hand at some coffee filter sails, and I got one installed and furled on the spritsail yard.

I’ll preface by saying it was a valiant first effort, but I definitely think my technique needs some work.

Nonetheless, I’d like to share my experiment, and see what people think.

It’s not great, but it’s way better than what I had previously.

Have a look:

Here we have some standard coffee filters, slightly crinkled to get a uniform texture Then I cut them out to reduced surface area, as per popular advice Then I painted them with Vallejo Hemp acrylic airbrush paint, and thinned Elmer’s glue. The color is too dark, but I’ll let it slide. By the way, I thought those vacuum-fomred sails were totally useless, but I found a decent purpose for them…paint trays! lol After they dried (with some help from the fiancee’s hairdryer) I peeled them off the plastic sheet just like they were stickers! Then I attached the spritsail to the yard with a running stitch (delicate work)and ran clewlines from the corners of the sail into the clew blocks on the yard. (I’m only going with clewlines for these sails, I think…baby steps for now) Put it on a clamp, moistened it with water, and pulled the clews up to the blocks…then I tried to furl it, but had some trouble with finger access, so I basically just tied on the gaskets and let them do most of the gathering for me…it came out pretty uneven, but with some persuasion I got a kinda-sorta furled look, and called it good. Here’s the back of the yard and sail.

Well, what do you all think? It’s an improvement from before, but it’s still not what I was hoping for exactly…not sure if I’ll let this one stay as-is, and try to do better on the rest, or pull it off and start over…

Dave

By Jove, you’ve got it! The only lines that seem to be missing are the sheets. Add them, and you’ll have all the gear necessary to handle the spritsail.

The others will be a little more complicated - but not much.

i do think the color is a little dark, but I think you can fix it later with some dry-brushed highlights.

To my eye the bundle looks just about the right size.

Much, much more natural look. I like it the way it is, but you may feel the need to tweak further, and I agree, they are a bit dark, but not unacceptable. By the time you get done, you will no doubt have yet another mastery under your belt.

Furled sails are never perfect. It’s a furled sail. I have hundreds of images of furled sails and boy there is a huge leap in presentation. Personally I don’t like the texture of filters(I tried them), but yours look good, great job bro.

Rob

Assuming that coffee filters are made of just about the same material as silkspan (they sure look like they are), the “paint/glue” trick eliminates any problem of texture. The fuzziness disappears when the paint and glue dry; the resulting surface is quite smooth.

I should emphasize that I’ve only used that trick on furled sails. I’m not a fan of set sails, on anything but very large and very small scales. In the past forty years I’ve made one exception: the sail on my Revell Gokstad ship ( cs.finescale.com/…/1701192.aspx ). I figured it deserved special consideration because (a) the scale was so large (about 1/64), and (b) the sail of the prototype apparently was made of double-layered, dyed wool cloth. Probably a good bit thicker than sails of 800 years later - and back lighting presumably didn’t have an effect on what it looked like.

Dave_K,

I have to tell you I am greatly impressed with your paint job on the hull and deck of this model. It is beautiful! Both you and docidle have mastered the technique of staining and hi-lighting wooden planks. I will certainly have to take a lesson from you when I build a wooden sailing ship. I look forward to your continuing progress.

Phillip1

Thanks, Phillip!

Here’s a quick question:

I’m having trouble finding a straight answer online…where do the lower lifts attach to the mast? Some pics/drawings I’ve found show the standing end to be looped around the mast, above the yard, then through the yard block, then the mast blocks, then down to deck…

In others, I’ve seen the standing end lashed to the lower stay above the yard, then following the above route…

Any input?

UPDATED

Never mind, I just tied them above the mast head, like the upper lifts…seems legitimate.

Also, I have encountered a huge pitfall of using kit-included rigging line, especially when departing from the manufacturer’s rigging plan…I’m running out of line! And since it’s the kit-included stuff, I can’t replace it…

I have most of the lines in place, just not belayed yet…with any luck, I’ll have enough to run the braces, and then I’ll be okay…but all I have left is the thinner of the two lines, so it’ll have to do.
Dave

THX

I think the likeliest rig during that period would start from a block on the lower mast cap, then run through the block at the yardarm, then back to the block on the cap, and down to the deck.

That German drawing shows the lift blocks strapped under the tops. That’s also a reasonable possibility - especially if the geometry is such that running the lift to the cap would make the rope chafe on the edge of the top. The block might well be lashed to the first shroud. For it to be lashed to the lower stay seems less likely, but certainly possible.

There’s a potential for a snarl up at the yardarm, where the lift block and the topsail sheet block are lashed to the yard at the same place. In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries the usual solution was to use a fiddle block (aka sister block), with two sheaves. The lift ran through the upper sheave and the topsail sheet through the lower one.

I don’t know if the kit includes any fiddle blocks. If not, Syrenshipmodelcompany Ship Models sells nice ones.

The Lavery book on the Susan Constant should explain all this clearly - and if he says something different from what I say, he’s right.