Been searching myself but can’t find a definate answer to a question i’ve been wondering about for some time now…
According to my (limited) library of modeling reference books and PDF’s the US Airforce didn’t really start to finish the B17 in natural metal untill the B17G was introduced…
Are there exceptions to this data i have? I am referring to starting the RoG B17F “Memphis Belle” kit… Would love to see it in Natural metal finish if any at all historically accurate… a pic or two would be great if you have it in your own library[;)]
The very late B-17F’s were in bare metal. I knew a ball turret gunner on one. He said they seem to be selected more as targets than the camouflaged ones. Also, his aircraft was one of the first with a chin turret. Yes, its little known but I believe only from the Witchita facility (would need to check my notes at home). My firend’s plane was shot down over Holland and he spent 2 years as a POW. He was a small man needed to fit that cramped turret.and when he came home he started a successful orchid growing business till his death. In my notes I have the serial number of his aircraft which verified the chin turret application.
I am not saying all bare metal B-17F’s had chin turrets, but probably all that had chin turrets were bare metal. Squadron’s B-17 in Action has drawings of the F chin turret arrangement.
A lot of pre-war -E’s were natural metal. I don’t ever recall seeing a picture of a natural metal -F except while being assembled in the factory. With the first flight of the -F’s being in May, 1942, I’d guess that most of them were camouflaged.
The USAAF began camouflaging their aircraft in late 1941, at which time, the B-17E was the variant in production. Camouflage was discontinued on production B-17s in Feb 1944, by which time the B-17G was the variant in production. Probably the closest you will get were a few few war weary modified B-17s in the South West Pacific Theater, that were turned in to executive transports. They were originally B-17Es, but as in the case of General MacArthur’s personal aircraft “Bataan”, his had the nose glazing replaced with a modified B-17F cone (no bombardier’s flat panel).
Since you are working off the Memphis bell kit which has the flat cheek windows it could be done. You would just need to add the Astrodome.
No B-17F models were produced in NMF! Especially none for combat. I’ve only ever seen a pic of one F model without paint (other than factory pics) and she was a VIP transport ship who was modified and had the paint stripped off her.
Yes, there were some B-17F models that did have a chin turret, I think it was the last 86 or so that vega produced, but they still wore camoflage. Vega was the first to produce B-17’s with out paint, B-17G 20 VE’s in december 43, then boeing a month later, then douglas, both in the 35 th production blocks.
So, sorry no F models in NMF, at least out of the factory, but I like what fermis said, it’s yours, paint it how you want it.
Thank you all for your very enlightning data… I already knew that the majority of the F’s were camouflaged. Was just kind of wondering if there were any known exceptions to the rule without the need for any scratching (something i’ve never done…)
Right now i tend to follow Fermis’ colourful advice ([;)]), throw the historically accurate mumbo jumbo overboard and just finish it in a dashing NMF “what if” scheme[:)]
I agree with your statement, that from the factory, they were delivered painted, but Mike T’s post indicates that at least one was stripped in the field, unless that gentleman was mistaken about the model of his aircraft.
Either way, sounds like a good subject for a build!
There is a fairly well known B-17 that was 1/2 OD and 1/2 NMF, Little Miss Mischief. It took a hit beside the ball turret nearly cutting the plane in half, but it still managed to get home, where the rear 1/2 was cut away and replaced with the back 1/2 of another B-17. It was a G model so the NMF 1/2 was at the front?
With the way maintenance crews salvaged B-17s there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to but together a combination of OD and NMF in a way that satisfies your need for shiny metal that also fits within the kit you have.
Early models up to the D also came in NMF, but the Cs that did come in NMF where quickly painted to match the Ds once the Army specification came out. So by the time Es and Fs where built, the Army wanted them painted. One E was left in NMF that became the YB-38, the Allison engined test bird.
Baron, I really dont want to say it’s not possible that gentleman flew in an NMF F model as it is certainly possible however unlucky. I would have to guess the gentleman is mistaken as to which model he flew in, in my opinion the aircraft had to be a G model beased on all the info given. However mike T did mention that he has the serial number of the gentlemans aircraft, I want to see that serial number. If it’s true that he was in an F model without paint, i’d like to see what the plane looked like.
AaronW…Little miss mischief was indeed a G model. She was spliced together at the rear bulkhead of the radio room, front half was a vega built G model and the rear was a boeing built G model, in fact she had parts from as many as 13 other forts after being rebuilt.
Chin turrets started with the block B-17F-BO-100 (Boeing built-BO) models through the F-BO-130 models before starting with G models. The early G’s were in olive drab and had the F nose cone which was longer in length than the later noses which were shortened to give the chin guns greater elevation. The nose cones were interchangeable through all models from the B to the G’s as they could be fitted to either model as it was done during the war and after while in civilian use. The tail turrets were also interchangeable from E to G as they changed to the new Cheyenne tails just by unbolting and putting on the new.
Yupper… Right where that panel line is, just forward of the wing trailing edge… Also, LMM had the outer third of her left wing replaced with an OD one from yet another Fort… What I don’t know is which serial number is which on her after the OD tail-swap… Was it repainted with the S/N of LMM or was it the S/N of the OD Fort? My sources conflict… Same as with the fate of ball-gunner. One source has him KIA and needing to be hosed out of the turret, the other says he survived with shrapnel wounds to the foot & leg… Unless they hacked him out with an axe, it looks like he rode the turret home, regardless…
I’ll post the tail number tonight when I get home. At that time Frank gave me the number, I checked it against references and found it to be in the batch of late F models receiving chin turrets. The serial number was also the source of the aircraft’s nickname. They made only several missions before being shot down over Holland. I am trying to remember what Frank Fordyce told me, but I believe he said that they received the aircraft as bare metal. As I mentioned earlier being one of the first bmf B-17’s in his unit made them a target of interest by the Luftwaffe.
Frank may still be alive, I am checking into it, he closed his business in 2006, receiveng many lifetime achievement awards. His expertise was in Cattelya orchids and there is now an annual award named after him. Orchid breeders tend to have sharp memories on details.
He also remembered after being liberated from his POW camp by the Russians and marched west. During the march some prowling US aircraft saw the column and thought it to be retereating German troops and straffed it. The POW were orderd by an officer to lay down on the ground to form the letters POW. Frank was one of those airman. The fighters came down for a second run, saw the letters wagged their wings and left. He said he was sure scared that the pilots would still just strafe them.
My notes show that the aircraft number was 42-29895. I believe it was assigned to the 324th BS of the 91st BG. Frank said he was shot down just prior to Thanksgiving in November 1943.
I reviewed the online dailies for the 324th and its missing the information for September through December. A/c 895 shows up in their dailies prior to that flown by different officers Lt’s Nichols, Parker and Berg.
Joe Baugher shows 42-29895 as a B-17F-75-BO, “Black Swan”, shot down in France Dec.31, 1943. My uncle’s original plane was 42-29955, an F-80-BO, of the 303rd BG, 427th BS. It was definitely an olive drab bird with no chin turret. Definitely out of the timeframe for the changeover to NMF.
Edit: A few F’s did come with NMF according to the 303rd BG Association website (303rdbga.com) under aircraft markings. The aircraft were probably not completed in numerical order. The 303rd owned “Baltimore Bounce” which was 42-29894, but they do not have any photos that I could find. The other closest ac I could find was 42-29931 which was another OD bird my uncle flew. Another thing that I remember is that F’s received chin turrets in the F-100-BO block and beyond. This is from Freeman’s book on the B-17.
Edit: I did find a photo on the AF Museum website that showed 379th BG ac 42-29891 and 29893 in OD and no chin turrets. Sorry for that. And the AF site shows 42-30949 as an F-130-BO in OD and no chin turret, so this is very confusing.
Wow, I just looked that up on the 303rd site, and it does say that, (not that I said you were wrong, just had to see it myself). I really wanna see a pic of one of these now, I’ve never heard of F models being delivered like that before, guess I’m gonna have to do some more research.
I’m, also seeing that 895 was shot down on 31 Dec 43, she was named the black swan, according to the 91st’s site.
Sorry for the late reply, but work has had me hopping. Too many trips down to Salinas from San Francisco. The name of the crewman (ball gunner) is Frank Fordyce. Yesterday I was at the Pacific Orchid Exposition in San Francisco and talked to a mutual friend of ours. Frank is still about and his mind is clear (he was at their special dinner). I am arranging now to set up a meeting with him and record his story. I will post what I learn from him. My notes may have been wrong about the time he was shot down as I have listed jsut after Thanksgiving, but it might have be just after Christmas, 1943. He was clear on the fact that it was bare metal and had a chin turret and that it was about the only one in the squadron that was, making them a preferred target. His legs are giving him some problems which his doctors attribute to the frostbite he received from exiting the aircraft when it was shot down.
One question, if the photos were official sourced, could the chin turret been airbrushed out by the censors? I have seen that in other photos with new equipment they didn’t wanted publicized.
