Does anyone know the availability of a wooden model of Robert Fulton’s steamboat “The North River”? If not, plans of the same would be acceptable. Either or both would be used for references.
I would like to build a 3/8 scale, working model, of the boat including the steam engine. What drawings that are available are scattered throughout various museums etc. The original patent drawings were lost in a fire years ago. Any leads greatly appreciated.
PRB
I used to know something about this subject, but I’m going to have to rely on a none-too-reliable memory. Take all the following with a grain of salt.
I used to work in a maritime museum. One of the last projects I worked on was a temporary exhibition of the patent drawings of Robert Fulton. They were on loan from some major professional organization of engineers; I’m afraid I don’t remember which one. This must have been in 1982 or 1983.
The drawings were fascinating. They included all sorts of mechanisms Fulton had conceived for steam engines, steamboat drive systems, and various other kinds of machinery. Some of them he actually built; others, we were pretty sure, never got beyond the theoretical stage.
While I was working on that exhibition I did all the reading I could about Fulton and his steamboats in the museum library. This was twenty-plus years ago, but I think I remember the basic facts about the situation pretty firmly.
Whether the boat in question actually was named Clermont is extremely iffy. Fulton sometimes referred to her formally as “The North River Steamboat of Clermont,” but in his private and business papers he usually just called her “the steamboat.” (Clermont, if I remember right, was the name of his house - or maybe that of one of his fellow investors. My memory’s foggy about that one.)
There are no contemporary plans that show the complete vessel. The patent drawings did include a fairly detailed plan of the machinery - the engine, boiler, gear arrangement, etc. And I seem to recall that there was a tiny image of the vessel in the background of one of Fulton’s watercolor paintings. In terms of firm, contemporary evidence - that’s it.
Several other nineteenth-century images of the vessel have been found. Unfortunately all of them are different in pretty significant ways. Lots of modelers have tackled the subject over the years, with interesting but utterly inconsistent results. So far as I know, there’s no reliable information on how long she was (though her beam can be estimated from the patent drawing). Some models give the hull a gracefully curving shape in plan view; others are shaped like a six-sided lozenge, with parallel sides amidships and straight, sharp points on both ends. At least one of the contemporary pictures seems to imply that she had cabins (with windows) in the after part of her hull, but others don’t. Some show one mast, forward, with a square sail on it; others show two, one forward, one aft.
The museum where I worked (the Mariners’ Museum, Newport News, Virginia) had a model of the boat that had been built back in, I believe, the 1930s. When I compared it with the patent drawing it was clear that the modeler had worked from the drawing. (It’s been published in several books - but I’m afraid I don’t recall the titles or authors.) Otherwise the model was based on speculation and inference.
I have an extremely vague recollection of having seen an ad for a wood Clermont kit somewhere many years ago, but I’m afraid it was from Marine Models or some other long-defunct company. I’m not aware of a wood kit on the market now. Certainly not one as big as 65PRB43 is looking for.
I do remember two plastic kits. One was from ITC; I don’t remember anything about it except that it existed. The other was from Lindberg, and was one of my favorites when I was considerably younger. It was about eighteen inches long, was molded in brown and white plastic, and had a remarkably sophisticated power plant. The paddle wheels and all the gears were reproduced more-or-less to scale, and the piston and its crosshead moved up and down above the single cylinder. You had to look closely to see the worm gear that connected the mechanism to the little Mabuchi moter concealed under the foredeck, along with its AA batteries. The kit was reasonably detailed for its time (the early sixties, I think). It even featured a set of crew and passenger figures. (I think it may have a tiny place in plastic kit trivia lists: the only ship model kit to contain a figure of a woman.) I haven’t seen one for years; I suspect it’s a collector’s item today. That’s a shame. With modern NiMH batteries it probably could make it from Albany to New York on one charge.
A set of plans purporting to represent the vessel may be on the market somewhere. I’ll check a source or two and see if I can find any; if so, I’ll do another post. But if they exist, they’re highly speculative.
So the bad news, from 65PRB43’s perspective, is that there’s no kit and no really reliable plans. The good news is that there’s plenty of room for imagination, personal interpretation, and personal taste. Lots of historians and model builders have tried their hands at reconstructing this extremely important vessel. There’s no reason why somebody else shouldn’t.
I found one set of plans. They’re offered by Taubman Plans Service ( www.taubmansonline.com ). On the home page, click on “Alphabetical List of Plans,” then on “C.”
There’s only one sheet, and the scale is 1/8" = 1’. That implies there isn’t a lot of detail. The website doesn’t include a picture, and doesn’t identify the draftsman or the source. Reading between the lines (i.e., looking at the catalog number, which as a “BL” in it) I think this drawing may have originated with Bluejacket Shipcrafters. That company has operated under that name for thirty-plus years. The product line was originally sold under the name Boucher Models (named after the founder). I think the ad for a wood Clermont kit that I mentioned earlier probably was for the Boucher kit. I have no idea how good or reliable this drawing may be - or whether it’s worth the price of $15.00. My impression of the old Boucher plans in general is that they were competently drawn but designed strictly to help with the building of the accompanying kits. That’s a roundabout way of saying that I doubt there’s much information on that sheet.
My poor old brain is having trouble remembering much about those patent drawings. 65PRB43’s remark about patent drawings having been destroyed in a fire rings true; I think the ones exhibited by the Mariners’ Museum may have been Fulton’s own copies. I remember that there were a lot of them, and that they were beautifully drawn, and some of them were pretty colorful (having been tinted with watercolor). I’m virtually certain that at least one of them was labeled as representing the steam plant of “the North River Steamboat.” I doubt that there ever was a patent drawing of the entire vessel (as opposed to the steam plant). There was nothing particularly remarkable about the hull or the rigging that Fulton could have patented.
To JTilley-
Thanks for info. The North River Scale 3/8 is 3/8" to 1’. The 1808 version of the boat was approx 150 ft long. The length that I’m looking at is in 5’-6’ range. It will be a joint project with my brother in NH. I actually live across the Hudson River from the Clermont Estate. Clermont was owned by the Livingston family. Chancellor Livingston and Fulton joined forces to build and promote the first successful steamboat. My interest in History got me interested in the Saugerties Fulton Steamboat Foundation and the building of a model. Any and all shared memories greatly appreciated.
This ship has been a mystery for eons… At least for 100 years or so. Back in 1909 there was a full size working replica built as close to what was known about the ship at the time for the Hudson-Fulton celebration. As the name inplies this was held on the Hudson River and was held for the 100th anniversary for the first steam powered ship (Fulton’s) to sail the river. The celbration should have happened in 1907, the actual year of Fulton’s steamboat but was put off until 1909 to celibrate the 1609 navigation of of the river by Henry Hudson’s “Half Moon”. The celbration also constructed a full scale replica of the “Half Moon”, both were funded by the New York Legislature and both replicas show up on a 1909 stamp. If memory serves the Hudson River Day Line took over the Fulton steamboat after the celibration and used her for some time in promoting the line. Sadly she wound up neglected in a backwater and was eventually scrapped in I think the 1930’s. No one really knows for sure what the actual ship looks like but ITC issued a kit of her as “Clermont” in the late 50’s or early 60’s. (Kit was molded in a pinkish/orange color) This kit is a dead ringer to the 1909 replica and for ITC was pretty accurate. It also makes sense that they would model this because there were a number of photographs taken of the ship way back than and quite a few postcards issued of it back in 1909. This was a huge celibration you must understand. The Lindberg kit was based on their own assumption and may have been modelled on a replica in a museum somewhere. As a result if you want to build a Fulton steamer that is based on something real, you can build her as she was reconstructed in 1909… It would be hard for anyone to prove you wrong!
To Aquitania,
THANKS for your input.
Perhaps a little more of my background is in order.
There is an organization the was started a couple of years ago in Saugerties, NY. It’s known as the “SAUGERTIES FULTON STEAMBOAT FOUNDATION”. One of their goals was to build a full size replica of the 1808 version (That being the longer, wider version with added cabins.) of the North River for the 2009 HUdson-CHAMPLAIN-FULTON celebration. It would later be used for educational purposes. That caught my interest. In January of this year I decided to look into the Foundation. I attended one of their meetings and told them of my interest. I am a Mechanical CAD designer by trade. What I offered to bring to the table was the creation of a full scale 3D digital model in CAD. They were thrilled at the idea, so I joined and became a board member. I then solicited the software company whose package I used at work. At first I was refused. I then contacted one of the corporate officers. He was sympathetic to my cause and authorized a $4000 software package be given to me as a contribution for an educational project.
I have been researching the boat since February. There are as many variations of the boat as there are artist who rendered her. I have found many written descriptions of the boat. They again are all over the map. What I have learned from my SFSF associates is that the 1909 replica, although quite presentable, had several discrepancies. As you have said, it’s probably not wrong as it was the best that could be done with the information that was available. The engine on the other hand, is well documented. In fact there is a company in England that has a copy of the original drawings.
The other board members are working on the funding aspect of the full sized Boat. There doesn’t seem to be a financial interest as of yet. The possibility of being able to afford the construction cost without outside is rather remote if not impossible. Knowing that I decided that building a working 3/8" to 1" scale model was a good alternative. I talked with my brother in NH. He has agreed to work on the model with me. It will be a first for both of us.
The remains of the 1909 version of the North River are buried in the mud flats at Kingston Point in Kingston, NY. I lived approx 10 miles from the site. if you go to the website below there are photos.
.www.ulster.net/~hrmm/quad/1909hudsonfulton/chapter08
Regards,
PRB
PRB
Wow,. that would be way cool if another full scale replica could be constructed. There seems to be no shortage of sailing ship replicas but nothing for powered vessels. Steam is awesome but there are almost no places… in the US anyway to experiance this, especially a running example. Europe has preserved a large number of running examples, in North America I can count on maybe one hand how many decent size steam powered ships are in restored/working condition. These of course include the “Virginia V” and the “Segwun”. Back before cruise ships became floating shoeboxes I used to travel all over to experiance what ultimately became end of the great liners, always on steam popered ships and often making a side trip here and there to see the likes of the Swiss paddle steamers, the steam festival in Holland and the “Scharhorn” in Hamburg. The bigger, the better of course but in the past 5 years or so many of my long time favorites have been scrapped even though many were in perfect condition, so many that there are probably less than a dozen “classics” left and not all are steam powered. These museum ships are really all that remains from the great era of steam but most are over seas. On the Detroit River there is work being done to bring the old excursion boat “Ste Claire” back to her 1910 appearance, back in steam and sailing under her own power. There is hope that her boilers will be lit in time for her 100th anniversary. Look at www.bobloboat.com for some info. The group that owns the carferry “City of Milwaukee” also hopes to ultimately her her back in steam. Imagine the sight of not one but of two reciprocating engines under power, and twin stacks belching out black smoke!
My understanding is that the name of the ship was “North River,” and the home port Clermont. The latter was apparently painted on the stern, and I can see how folks might take that as the vessel’s name.
I am fascinated with the complexity of the drive system. It used gearing between engine and wheel- huge gears! Gear hobbing in those days, especially in US, was not in a very evolved state, and I suspect gear wear must have been a source of much maintenance work. Amazing how soon they developed arrangements to eliminate the gearing.
I have seen a number of reconstructions of steam launches, but nothing the size of the NRoC. There was a reconstruction made for a Centennial celebration and I know some of the machinery survived for awhile- wonder if it is still around. Reconstructing the hull shouldn’t be that difficult- it was pretty much a barge hull form.
The old thread that I linked in my last post goes into the question of the ship’s name. As I remember (beware my notorious memory), Fulton referred to her in his letters as “the North River steamboat,” or simply “the steamboat.” Clermont was the estate of Fulton’s friend and financial backer Robert Livingston. There are contemporary references to “the North River Steamboat of Clermont.” I don’t know whether she was officially registered anywhere; maybe not. (If so, the registration document would almost certainly include a formal name.) So far as I know, none of the contemporary pictures (which aren’t much help in any case) shows a name painted on her.
An historically important ship about which scarcely anything is actually known. This thread is making me think seriously about buying that kit. Don - I know there’s no motor in it, but does it maybe have the old worm and worm gear? I have no urge to run it in the bathtub, but watching all that machinery in action was great fun.
Well, it is nice to learn a new fact particularly when it unravels accepted custom. North River although Clermont sounds nicer.
I have the Lindberg kit and it has all the gears and what not which are supposed to be operable. Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et3ZgVyi968
Jig anyone has copy with a motor and worm gear we could find replacements.
That is really great to hear the kit can still be motorized !
Guess I’ll be hauling my stern down to the local Hobby Town to buy the kit…as for the motor…well, …Radio Shack would hafta be in bankruptcy now that I know of something I want to buy from there.[^o)]
According to that U-Tube video, all the gears (including the worm and worm gear) are in the Round 2 reissue. I didn’t notice the switch in the video, but I think the battery box was there. And the instruction sheet is a copy of the original - including the motor, batteries, and wiring. If I’m right, to motorized it you’d need a motor (with a shaft of the right size) and a foot or two of wire.
Another possible motor source is MicroMark. But the Radio Shack website shows a lot of them in different sizes and shapes - at ridiculously low prices.
Lest we be too hard on Round 2 for leaving out the motor - I wonder if those beloved little Mabuchi ones can be found any more. I feel a web search coming on.
Two minutes later: A google search on “mabuchi motor” brought up several companies that sell them, but they don’t look like they did in the Olde Dayes. It looks to me like most of the ones on the Radio Shack site are Mabuchis. I’ll bet one of them could be made to work. I visualize myself strolling into the local Radio Shack with that plastic worm in my pocket…
David K this ones for you!
Radio Shack soon OOB so hustle
Yep!
Otherwise I hafta buy from an online electronics store…just like I’m now forced to buy from for many kit accessories that the local Hobby Town doesn’t carry.
There are two parts to the gearing system. Fulton used pinion gears for gearing between engine and paddle shaft. These are all in the kit and should be included in any build. In addition, Lindberg used a motor with motor axis is longitudinal, whereas the Fulton pinion gear shafts are athwartship. A worm gear in the motorized version provides the 90 degree direction change and some additional gearing change. I intend to close off the hole to the motor and eliminate the worm gear.
Well, that’s the serious scale modeler’s approach. But it sure is fun to watch that (more-or-less) scale machinery in action.
Anyway - good luck.
Hey , Goose !
I learned yesterday that there will be store closings , yes . But in specific areas the chain will remain open with fewer stores and therefore fewer people to be paid .!
Except that things aren’t quite what they used to be.
I talked to someone in an open store…he said that he tried to order a product for pickup but the order was not able to be completed.
Guess corporate is still figuring out what to do.