Af first I thought this question was better in the Off topic area, but then I did not know how many aircraft fanatics visited there.
Is there a website that lists flight maneuvers like the Immelmann and the Split-S?
Hey -
Have a look at the following link:
http://www.rcdb.com/glossary33.htm
It’s got info on the Immelmann and much more…
Also try:
http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/aerobatics/maneuvers/split_s.htm
for the split s
Not to get to much into it, but I am playing in a Play By eMail game and my character knows Airplane acrobatics. I wanted to know more of the maneuvers. The first site is mostly coaster created with a few aircraft related.
The second being an RC site gave quite a few more. Thanks
Try this site, you may find links to what you need. Also, I fly competition aerobatics, so if I can answer any questions, fire away!
Hi there Ashley, I don’t want to hijack this post, but I have a question regarding an aerobatic maneuver I experienced as a passenger on my first (and only so far) flight in a Cessna 172. The (very young) instructor had a background in glider flying, and had an interesting solution to loose altitude quickly in order to get back to the airport (Teuge in the Netherlands).
First he increased the throttle setting to full, then pulled back on the stick (don’t know how steep because I didn’t look sideways). Then somehow the world turned upside down and started spinning[:D]. All of a sudden I was seeing just the ground out of the windscreen, and when I looked over to see what the pilot was doing, I saw he had full left rudder and full left stick input. A few seconds later he pulled out of the dive and we were magically flying a lot lower and apparently in the right direction[8D]. He then handed the controls back to me, but I must admit a was a bit ‘green’ in the face, lol. Was glad we landed a few minutes later, but the experience was soooo cool! Well, I’m hooked now (alas no funds to do anything about it now, but I may some day), but I still don’t know what maneuver he performed there. Could you tell from my description?
Cheers,
Filibert
Filibert, what you describe sounds like a spin. The airplane is slowed to a stall condition, and rudder is applied in one direction or the other. This causes one wing to be a little more stalled than the other, the nose drops to around 50 degrees down ( in the 172), and the airplane appears to corkscrew. This will lose a lot of altitude without gaining much airspeed. The recovery is simply applying opposite rudder until the rotation stops, and pulling out of the dive that ensues. With practice, you can recover the spin on any heading you desire.
The only thing I find curious is the application of full power. If power is left on during the spin, gyroscopic precession will raise the attitude of the nose, flattening the spin. This is great in an acro bird, but somewhat less desireable in a Skyhawk! Some of the later 172s with all the fin and rudder extensions are very spin resistant, so it sounds like he used power and a very abrupt pull-up to the stall to force the spin entry. I will bet he had the power back to idle by about a quarter turn.
Glad you enjoyed it! That is the first step to becoming a bona-fide G junkie!
Thanks for the elaborate explanation Ashley! Maybe the full-power setting was indeed a bit of a boo-boo, because the pilot only throttled back after recovery. I don’t recall the airspeed (was in no mood to look at any dials [:D]), but it seemed the engine had too many revs at that point. The engine/prop produced a noise that didn’t sound as it should[:-^]. Uhm… am I correct in understanding my instructor pulled the plane into a stall by pulling on the stick too hard(on purpose)? [:-,][:D][:D] Btw, I would say he couldn’t have been more than 20 years old, if that. Well, who cares, he gave me an experience I’ll remember for a long time!
In the mean time, I’ll try to replicate the procedure you described in Flight Simulator[swg]
Yeah, leaving the power on was probably a mistake, I would bet he had not been trained in aerobatics. Yanking the stick hard will accelerate the stall speed, for example, my Christen Eagle stalls at 57 mph if you idle the power and gently increase the aft stick until the stall occurs at 1 G. Yet, I can get the stall to occur at 120 mph with a quick yank on the stick, then an application of rudder gives me my snap roll. I have felt the stall nibble at the wings at 160 by pulling too hard for a loop.
The way we perform flat spins is to stall the airplane normally and enter the spin. Then, we bring the stick forward to neutral which accelerates the spin rotation. This has a tendency to raise the nose attitude on its own, then we add full power so the precession brings the nose up to level. Opposite aileron then makes it spin as flat as a pancake! The difference between my airplane and the 172 lies in the amount of control authority available for recovery. Once a spin is flat in most light, non-aerobatic airplanes, they won’t recover.
I have never had any luck getting Flight Sim airplanes to spin, or snap roll. Perhaps my realism settings aren’t correct.
Interesting stuff Ashley, interesting stuff! I have checked out the Christen Eagle and now I’m jealous [8D][:D]. Did you build yours yourself? Even if you didn’t: [bow][bow][bow]. I hesitate to offer my totally noob assesment of the only flight I ever made behind the controls, but I can’t resist. I had expected the 172 to be slow, underpowered, not very stable (small airplane) and maybe requiring a bit of muscle to fly. Boy was I wrong! Admittedly, there was hardly any wind when I flew, but that plane would fly straight and level by itself (at the correct power/trim setting of course, which was taken care of for me [;)]), and could be flown using just two fingers! Also, I discovered this plane had more to offer than I would be able to physically handle (well, at least without breakfast: my mistake). The wildest thing I did was a 45degree bank-turn, but still: I would NOT mind having access to one of these cinderellas[8D]. I can only imagine what flying aerobatics in your plane must be like. Come to think of it: I’probably can’t[(-D][(-D][(-D]
Ashley
The first time I ever spun a 150, we (my instructor and I) had been practicing power on stalls. It was a hot day with lots of thermals and we were climbing at full power and the instructor told me to just keep bringing the nose up until we stalled because he wanted me to see the difference in attitude between a stall at cruise power and a stall at full power. (let me explain that by this time in my training I had already picked up the trick of kicking opposite rudder when a wing dropped).
So here we are, in a 50 to 60 degree attitude, full power in, airspeed falling, rudder about 25% to the right (remember torque in climb) and a thermal hits the right wing Without thinking, I kicked right rudder to pick up the left wing and the stall broke at the same time. We didn’t break straight ahead but literally went over backwards in a spin to the right. At the end of the first turn, I had the wheel just forward of neutral and full left rudder in (I had read the “Manual”). Nothing. At the end of the second turn I had the wheel full forward and full left rudder in. Nothing. At this point I was starting to get scared (read “panic” or Pucker Factor at 8 on a scale of 10).
At that point I looked over at my instructor and there he sat with his arms crossed, watching the world go round. Calmed down and pulled power off and we came out of the spin after 3 1/2 turns. The instructors explanation after the flight was that an engine running at full power would tend to hold the aircraft into the spin and the first thing I should have done was to have reduced power after entering the spin. He was only suprised we didn’t end up in an inverted spin.
Funny thing is, now I would much rather spin an airplane than stall one.
I’m breaking out in a cold sweat just reading that, Quincy.[:D]
Yup, power will do that. You couldn’t get into an inverted spin unless you stalled the wing that way, in other words, with forward stick. But entering a right rudder upright spin from a left turn will produce a snaproll type entry that will take the aircraft momentarily inverted before the spin stabilizes. An eye-opener, but still well within the G limits of the airplane, so perfectly safe. All spins are safe >IF< you have plenty of altitude, the airplane is within the proper CG range AND approved for spins, and you have spin training.
Ashely,
You are absolutly right, but to a student who hadn’t soloed yet, it was a real eyeopener.
If my flight instructor had entered a spin in a 172 to reduce altitude I’d fire him. Same with a snap roll. If my instructor hadn’t taken control of the airplane when I had entered into a spin without spin training I’d fire his @## too.
A side slip used to quickly reduce altitude is the appropriate maneuver. This is done by left or right aileron with opposite full rudder. It’s controlled, safe, and you lose altitude quickly. Especially on an approach to an airport.
The 172 is a very forgiving airplane. The plane doesn’t want to spin. I just went to an AOPA seminar where they intentionally tried to put a 172 into a spin and were only successful about 50% of the time. These are professionals trying to spin the plane. I had an Air Force pilot tell me that he tried and could never get a 172 to spin.
Ahsley’s right. A spin is safe if you have altitude, you’re in a plane approved for spins (they wont let us put a 172 into a spin where I fly) and you have the proper training. The training is good and I highly recommend it. To get it where I live (Colorado) you have to go to an aerobatics school. But if you have an instructor that thinks this is a fun thing to do with a student in a 172. Fire his @##! He’s an idiot!
[soapbox]
You’re right David, my instuctor probably was doing some reckless stuff there. But I’ll tell you one thing: a side slip wouldn’t have had me talking about it half a year later.[:D]
Actually, Weebles, a spin is an effective and safe method of losing altitude, with all the caveats mentioned before AND a thorough clearing of traffic below the airplane. You are at 1 G, there is less side loading on the fuselage and vertical fin due to the fact that you are at or near 1G level stall speed throughout. And it is a fun way to correct for being just a little high on your final approach. (just kidding)
I agree, the spin need to be introduced by instructors in a structured and deliberate curriculum, not a “hey watch this!” approach. And the new 172s do not spin worth a hoot, which is why our instructor in question probably had to snap the entry. One has to wonder, if it is that hard to enter, how hard would it be to recover? I don’t believe in forcing an airplane to do something it doesn’t want to, they bite.
Now, a 172 of 1960’s vintage, with the short dorsal fin and the non-drooped wingtips is a delightful spinner. Enters easily, recovers precisely. I teach all my Private and Recreational students spins up to 2 turns, and recovery on headings. They can do recoveries on the half and quarter turns. By becoming that proficient with the spin, they instinctively avoid even approaching the stall condition when it would be inadviseable. I find spins to be a valuable tool.
At the AOPA (Aircraft Owners & Pilot’s Assn.) seminar I attended statistically 46% of all General Aviation accidents were a result of stalls and spins. Of that fatalities occurred 41% of the time during maneuvering, 28% on takeoff, and 18% on approach. That’s why there is so much time in flight training devoted to stall and spin awareness. A spin is not a good condition to be in, particularly if you don’t have enough altitude such as when you’re maneuvering in the traffic pattern. I can’t begin to tell you how often my instructor would get on me to keep the ball centered. If you keep the ball centered you wont spin. If you maintain a stabilized approach you probably will not stall.
Furthermore 32% of accidents were the result of buzzing or NOE flying. Aerobatics accounted for 9% of accidents. That said I believe the statistics are 2 in 10 aerobatic pilots die.
If you want to fly for the adrenaline rush your best bet is to hook up with a qualified aerobatics instructor. I had a friend who never achieved his pilot’s license but instead spent all his flying efforts learning aerobatics. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what interests you in flying.
Flight instructors have a responsibility for teaching safe flying techniques. Pilots like your young instructor too often end up dead. I think he must have watched too many WWI movies.
Enough of this… How’s life in Holland these days? It’s been a few years since I was Rotterdam. I really enjoyed my time there though.
Take care and fly safe
Dave
Hi Ashley,
At the seminar I attended they were talking about a boot that NASA applied to the leading edge of 172’s, Mooney’s, etc. It was based on Cirius wing technology. They couldn’t stall a 172 with the boot on. It just wasn’t possible no matter how uncoordinated the configuration. I forget what the numbers were on the other aircraft but they were somewhere less than 15%, and that’s with professionals trying really really hard to spin the plane. Amazing stuff!
They have pretty much made these planes stall proof. No stall, no spin. However, they will enter a high-drag, mushy descent with the same eventual outcome. I believe that the stall-spin accident rate is probably never going to get appreciably better, because people are not being taught to feel their wing. Most CFI’s today have only perfomed the 2 spins required for their sign-off (and I suspect a few have just penned that in their logbooks), and a great deal of them are actually afraid of stalls themselves. This sends an erroneous message to their students.
By spending a lot of time, and I mean several hours, in and around the critical angle of attack, in fully developed stalls and eventually precision spins, you will develop a kinesthetic “sixth sense” about the status of the airflow on your wing, allowing you to subconciously avoid the condition when at low altitude.
The defense rests, now back to modeling!
Hi Dave, life in Rotterdam is allright, thanks! Not much flying going on though. I think I need to substantially augment my income to do anything about that. Therefore (for the moment) aeronautic involvement is restricted to finishing my Tamiya Beaufighter and Hasegawa F-15E in 1/48 scale. One day though, one day. really enjoyed this thread folks![:D]