I could use some information about the unit markings of the 654th sPzJgAbt at Kursk, and one Ferdinand in particular, Major Noak’s vehicle, #501.
Here’s a color plate…
…and the actual vehicle:
I notice some discrepancies between the photo and color plate. For one, the diagonal red bar on the front glacis in the color plate doesn’t seem to exist in the photo. The entire gun shield in the photo is painted a solid color, something darker than the green striping on faces of the same angle and lighting. Could it be red?
General question, it is known that the tactical markings of Noak’s vehicle were red, did the 654th use the same colored boxes as the 653rd, on the upper right corner of the rear superstructure?
Noak’s vehicle was knocked out early in the Kursk offensive and he was killed, does anyone know if this vehicle was ever recovered? This is the only photo I’ve been able to find, and the presence of Soviet officers means it’s not a German photo.
Without getting home to check my refs I can tell this from the pics:
I notice some discrepancies between the photo and color plate. For one, the diagonal red bar on the front glacis in the color plate doesn’t seem to exist in the photo. That diagonal line is the barrel’s shadow, not a marking. The entire gun shield in the photo is painted a solid color, something darker than the green striping on faces of the same angle and lighting. Could it be red? A lot of those shields were fitted at the last minute, as they were not necessarily standard issue; my guess is that it could be in a red primer or oxidized metal color.
General question, it is known that the tactical markings of Noak’s vehicle were red, did the 654th use the same colored boxes as the 653rd, on the upper right corner of the rear superstructure?
Noak’s vehicle was knocked out early in the Kursk offensive and he was killed, does anyone know if this vehicle was ever recovered? As there are Russian officers casually inspecting the vehicle, and the Germans never gained any more ground past their furthest advances, my guess is that it stayed in Russian hands. This is the only photo I’ve been able to find, and the presence of Soviet officers means it’s not a German photo.
#501 was in fact captured by the Soviets and is the Ferdinand on display at the Kubinka Tank Museum near Moscow. It was immobilized by a mine early on and due to lack of recovery means was abandoned. The Soviets captured it, sent it off for testing at the Armored Troops Institute, then sent it off to Kubinka.
According to my AJ Press book “Ferdinand, Elefant vol.2” by Tadeusz Melleman, the gun shield is painted solid green.
The vehicles in the 654th did NOT use the tactical colored “box” symbols used by the 653rd for unit designations. Vehicle #501 has a white letter “N1” on the left front fender indicating it’s with the 1st Company. “Nst” represents the HQ Company, “N1” the 1st company, “N2” the 2nd Company and “N3” is the 3rd Company.
I have a couple of pictures/profiles of 501 that I can scan for you, but not until after I get home from the Management dinner tonight.
There are 4 photos of Ferdinand 501 on pages 141-142 of The Combat History of sPzJgAbt. 654, the captions states this is company commander’s vehicle of Oberleutnant Wilde, not Noak. The HQ company vehicles were numbered II 01, II 02 and II 03. A chart on page 64 lists all the Abteilung’s vehicle commanders and confirms 501 as belonging to Oberleutnant Hans-Joachim Wilde. Noak’s vehicle would have been II 01…theoretically at least.
Thanks for the help so far, guys, it’s been very informative and useful.[tup]
I’m also wondering if anyone has pictures of vehicle #231 of 2 kp/sPzJgAbt 653. It’s my other possible marking option for my Ferdinand, but I’d like to see what the camo scheme looks like. I know it’s green blotches but a good picture would still be very nice, if anyone has one.
…the rear of 231 shows a large rectangle in red w/ a smal box on the upper right and 231 duplicated on the left side…my refs say it was Meigen’s vehicle…
Yeah, but photos of Ferdinands at Kursk show very crisp and opaque camo patterns, much different from the usual misty patterns seen on German armor. While I appreciate the color plate Kykeon provided, I tend to think the one espins posted is more accurate, from the one photo I have of 231 (although maybe the edges of the camo are not quite that sharp)
There is only one photo of 231 on page 157 of Combat History of sPzJgAbt. 653. I would also agree that the color plate Espins posted appears to be more accurate than the one I have. I’d post the photo, but it is probably the same one you already have.
I’m a little over halfway done reading “The Combat History of German Heavy Anti-Tank Unit 653 in World War II” by KarlHeinz Munch (Stackpole Books).
Some commanders kills are mentioned in a particular engagement or battle, but no combat tallies.
I was surprised to read that the 653 was responsible for 320 confirmed kills during Operation Zitadelle (the 654th had 200, for a total of 520 confirmed tank kills by the Ferdinands alone [8D]). Those are some pretty amazing stats, which means most of those crews were wracking up quite a tally! [:O]
