Guys, I’m confused. I’m building an F-105G and can’t decide what ordnance load to put on it.
The aircraft (F-105G #62-4440) was assigned to 17 WWS / 388 TFW in November, 1972. At that time the AGM-78 “Standard” was already in use, and if I understand properly the Standard was intended to replace the AGM-45 Shrike. I’ve seen pictures of G’s with a mix of Shrikes and Standards, but all of the pictures were made after the war or outside the theatre.
I’ve got about 9300 lbs of load left since I installed the 390 gallon internal fuel tank. The Shrike weighs 390 lbs and the Standard 1,070 lbs. In addition to the AGM-45 and AGM-78 I’ve also got M177 Bombs, Mk 82 bombs, ALQ 71 ECM pod, 720lb Napalm, AGM-12B Bullpup, and drop tanks.
Anybody have any experience with what a “Realistic” load for this bird would be, or know of any pictures that show the loads under wartime conditions?
I may have some pictures Scott, I’ll check today and get back with you.
That would be a great help. Thanks very much!
The Wild Weasels flew in pairs. One would be loaded with one AGM 45 on the outboard pylon, with an ALQ 87 ECM pod loaded on the other outboard pylon. One AGM 78 loaded on the inboard wing pylon and a drop tank on the other. On the centerline would be the drop tank.
The other aircraft would be loaded with two wing drop tanks, one AGM 45 and one ALQ 87 on the outboard pylons. On the centerline it would have a MER loaded with CBU’s or MK 117’s.
It would only take one shot to kill a radar site. Other sites would shut down as soon as they learned the weasels were in the area. The first aircraft would fire a AGM 45 to kill the site. The second aircraft would drop its centerline load to destroy the SAM’s and launch equipment. They would then go looking for “Fresh Meat” to use the rest of their load on.
Thanks for the help Berny and Adam. That’s the kind of info I’ve been looking for but have been unable to find. I should have known to just start here first.
Since I allready built that kit, and I built every piece of ordinance that came with it, then I would say load it up with the center and inbound pylons with the bigger bombs and do the AGM-78’s on the outbound pylons. Just don’t make everything like I did, it really blows…
Yeah, it does have a lot of ordnance with it! Five complete sprues of nothing but ordnance. I’ll hang onto most of them, I might want to do a dio of an ammo bunker someday and I’ll already have half the parts I need!
Sorry Scott, I can’t seem to locate a picture for you… sounds like the others have given you some sound advice though.
No problem, Adam. I appreciate your taking the time to look anyway. I think I can come up with something from the infor given.
Thanks everyone.
Mr. Music,
While attending college in Utah, I spent an afternoon with the 416th at Hill AFB when they were still flying Thuds. “Gringo” was an F-105G pilot during the time period you are talking about with the 17th WWS. I asked very specific questions about loads as the “new” Monogram F-105G kit in 1/48 scale had come out. He stated they flew in the time period he was there (June 72 to Feb 73) with the 17th WWS standard conventional load of AGM-45 Shrike on the right outboard, AGM-78 Big Bertha on the right inboard pylon, centerline external fuel tank, left inboard with an external fuel tank and left outboard with an AGM-45 Shrike. This was a LINEBACKER I and LINEBACKER II loadout for the Thud Weasels. They would fly with F-4E escorts loaded with SUU-30 cans filled with CBU-58 for support. If you can find Don Logan’s book on the 388th Tac Fighter Wing in Vietnam it will show you pictures of this load on the “Geasels”. Gringo mentioned to me this was the load of choice for the Geasels as they ramped up for LINEBACKER II which began the following month from the time period you are talking about. It is a very dynamic load for a Weasel as it gave them good stand off range with Big Bertha and the Shrike for close in shots. “Close in shots” on a SAM site…just say the words and your insurance rates go up! BOMBING a SAM site with CBU…same thing!
As a side note, I brought the Monogram Geasel kit with me and talked to him again later and he went through the same discourse with me and then started talking about many of his missions. He talked for 2 1/2 hours on LINEBACKER I and LINEBACKER II missions and the tactics they used. I was doing a Senior project on the creation of the Wild Weasel mission and Hill was the place to be as they had the Thud drivers and the F-4G Advanced Wild Weasel was being made there also. Great time researching this 60 page paper. No I do not have a copy of it anymore. Wish I did.
Thanks, Sluggo, that’s some great information and gels pretty closely with Berny’s information. Apparently they never used the double or quad AGM-45 launchers like I suspected they did.
I really appreciate the help guys. You kept me from making a mistake!
Mr Music,
The dual Shrike launch rail kit had a very high drag index so performance was degraded. The other reason they did not like it was when you launched one missile and there was only one Shrike left on one of the rails it vibrated a lot. Particularly at high G loads on the jet when dodging SAMs…which was just about every mission! Pilots and WSOs I have met tell me it shakes the whole plane when there is only one missile left on the rail. Those were the reasons they did not like it and quit using it. This did not keep the Weasel crews from using the arrangement as a PsyOps event. Appearantly they took pictures of a Weasel Thud loaded on both sides with the dual launch kits and dropped leaflets all over North Vietnam to show what the NVA SAM crews had in store for them. Of course the whole AGM-88 HARM concept has changed all of this. HARM is a terrific SAM hunter. During Iraqi Freedom we used some other hard kill methods on the Baghdad MEZ in conjunction with HARM employment. Very effective in taking down the IADS around Baghdad and our success over downtown shows it. But I digress…
This same launch adapter was used on the F-4D Wild Weasels after the war and they had similar problems. This was a big piece of metal and created a lot of drag on the jet so performance suffered. Same-same with the triple AGM-65 Maverick launcher for the A-10 Hogs. Great idea but at a cost. The triple Maverick arrangement has a very high drag index and during Desert Storm a lot of units went with the triple launchers on both sides but slant loaded them. By slant loaded I mean outboard shoulder and bottom launch rails armed with inboard rail empty. I saw this on a number of CSAR jets. The single Maverick rail is the norm now unless you might be working in a very target rich environment close to the battle. We may not have these triple launchers in the inventory anymore or if they are, they are collecting dust in a corner of the weapons bay now (Cuda, any gouge on this?). I just don’t see them anymore on jets. The dual Shrike launch adapter kit had to high a price in the cost/benefit analysis so they went with singles on each side. If you can find Don Logan’s book, it has several great pictures of the Geasel loadout you are looking for.
Thanks, Sluggo. Many of the pictures I’ve seen do show them with multiple Shrike launchers, so I suspect it was more of a psychological shot than anything else, as you mentioned. I can see how they would cause asymmetrical drag when one side was empty and the other loaded, it would try and twist it off the wing. Just never though of it like that.
Funny how something so minor can affect the aerodynamics of a 54,000 pound airframe. It’s a fact though. I remember once during flight training my instructor mentioning that the plane (a Cessna 172RG) should fly better that day because they had scraped all the dead bugs off the leading edge of the wing [:)]
Thansk again for the help, that’s great information.