Just like to find the thoughts on criticism on this particular forum. Is it me or are their certain people on this forum who delight in going out of their way to find something to critcise, no matter how hard the modeller has tried. If we are to promote this side of the hobby should we not provide constructive criticism with encouragement. I fail to see the need of those, who have put themselves on a pedestal, using language that amounts to belittling the modellers best efforts. There are is a range of modelling skills on this forum and not everybody reaches the competition winning standard, however should we not encourage those of lesser skills, money, time and equipment, myself incuded, to strive to reach a standard that we are happy with and not hit with a barrage of comments to show we are not worthy. I have noted that I do not see this type of criticism on the Aircraft, Sci-Fi or ships forums.
My thoughts on criticism in this forum is that it is not tolerated in any way, shape or form by members. Anything less than an obligatory “great job” runs afoul of the forum defenders.
well, personally i don’t see it as criticism but feedback, either positive or negative.
i always learn allot from the feedback i get and often use it on my next builds.
ofcourse everyone likes to hear all the good things and mayby we should all take a more positive approach in our feedback (i think it does happen quite allot), but i personally post my pic’s here to share, but most of all to learn. and to learn someone has to be critical.
so the moral of this story, it doesn’t bother me but it is nice also to hear the good things.
happy building, Rob
well just starting off in this hobby after years of just reading FSM, i look at the critiques as feedback. i really don’t see criticism, but someone who wants to point out simple flaws to make it more in-scale and realistic as possible. yesh it does kinda get aggraviating having people use huge words that i have no clue what they mean, and THAT is what makes them up on their pedestals, but not the critiques. alot of people have a great knowledge on here. alot of people on here were in the military or actually are on active duty right now and work with these beasts everyday. don’t knock their knowledge because they know more than you. that’s why they are here, for help and feedback. i can ask a question about anything, and i will most likely get an answer back. what type of tread did the early shermans have? what is “live” track? what color is the interior of a M2A2? i have recieved many of critiques on how to make my models better. everyones reply is helpful, through eyes other than mine. i rather have someone tell me what’s wrong with my kit, than someone lie to me and tell me it looks great.
You prove my point exactly, I did make the statement of giving “constructive criticism” as opposed to “destructive criticism”. As a professional trainer I have seen the effects of destructive comments have on people. I believe criticism is a good thing; if given in a way that educates and does not denigrate.
barrovian: I’m 100% in agreement that if we decide to give feedback/criticism, it should be both constructive and conveyed in an encouraging tone – do to others what you’d like to have done to yourself. Agreed.
I frequently offer observations – I would hope that I don’t sound critical or condescending but must admit that sometimes I might fail. I think the vast majority of my notes to models are like this: “May I offer a suggestion?” or “Here’s something I observed” or “Something to do for the next time might be…”
However, this forum, above others has an inexhaustable number of “Great job” posters without any objective help – when in fact the model presented is mediocre or poor. This does NO service to the modeller other than boost ego while offering no help. Frankly, I often just don’t bother to comment with many presented models.
I don’t think this helps the modeller and gives him/her a false sense of quality. Given the nature of FSM being more of an “entry” magazine and AFV community (I don’t mean to sound belittling – it’s my opinion), I understand that more novice modellers are members of this forum and may not be familiar with Missing Lynx or Track Link or Planet Armor or Armorama.
Again, this doesn’t take away from the needed positive tone and encouragement. I, for one, will do my best to maintain that.
I agree 100% w/Col. Robin Gronovius’ observation. But this false “paternalism” only raises self-censorship and lack of honest feedback – which doesn’t increase the skills of modellers, IMHO.
Rgrds, RC
I agree with Rob and Roy, posting at the same time again :), on this issue. I give constructive criticism often. It is usually received well by most members, but there will always be a few who have to throw out the comments that the model looks great and why don’t we just tell the modeler he did a great job, he tried, we shouldn’t criticise, etc. To me, the “Wow, that looks great!!” automatic response that is common on FSM helps no one to improve, which should be the reason you post your pics here; to get another eye to look at it and tell you where/what you can improve to make your models better. The “Great job!!!” effect has diminished this site to many as a serious site just for that reason. I will continue to give constructive criticism as I do though, naysayers and all.
Gino says it concisely. Whether people like it or not, there’s a core of pretty experienced modellers who post here and other sites. They’re pretty tied into the “mainstream” or “conventional wisdom”, have a good eye of what is good bad and ugly, AND ARE HERE TO HELP OUT. Are there boorish experts who carelessly toss out criticism. Sure. And they need to chill out. Like I said above: do to others as you’d have them do for you.
But, the more “defensive” postures or “no criticism” slags that erupt – the more of us will just leave FSM behind (which WON’T help the many re-entering or beginning modellers who frequent this forum).
Trust me, the forums on the other sites are very cutting edge in terms of artistry and research and serve as nice homes to the likes of Rob G, Gino Q, Bill Plunk, myself (and I’m sure I’m omitting others). If he contribution of these “experts” continues to be maligned and unwanted, well – it’s pretty easy to just delete the FSM forum from our bookmark. However, my view is that these guys lurk here to genuinely help out others.
So the next time you see someone being a little harsh, fine. Point it out to the poster discreetly, and off line and give him the benefit of the doubt. We have our bad days. But don’t muzzle real constructive criticism. That’ll send this needed site into the toilet very quickly.
i agree with gino, rob, and T62 on everything said. we “new” modelers post pics here for advice. i can either ask for help in many different subjects, which i am sure will be answered, or post my pics, which i continue to do, KNOWING that there will be critism. but the difference is, i KNOW its constructive critism. i know that everyone is all here to help. like T62 said, trax linx and other sites are more for the experienced, these guys just stick around to help us “less experienced” folks out. its better to let someone know what to fix, then give them the “it looks great” line, and they have learned nothing. and look at it this way, all these experienced modelers are REALLY experienced. would you take offense if there was an old army vet who was always cranky and old fashioned? i wouldn’t. i’d take it like a man, and lean from him. sorry “experienced” guys. [;)]
For the most part, I agree with Rob’s statement above. When I first joined the forum, many of the experienced modelers provided outstanding criticism on a daily basis…then the turnover(s) in members began. Soon, it seemed every model was getting a long list of nothing but “well done” comments - even when some “not so well done” comments would have been completely appropriate (IMHO). This has been particularly true in the armor forum where I spent the majority of my time. When I want to receive or give serious (but not spiteful) criticism on models, I now go to one of several other forums.
I’m not as experienced nor have trained eyes like most of you here. Most of the time I do say “Great Job!” on most postings because to me, those models look a lot better than what I can produce and I am not at the level where I can give pointers. For the most of part, many of members here in FSM give fair and balanced criticism, hoping that their comments would help modelers to build better models in efficient manner. There maybe some people in this forum (just like any other group gatherings) may have used unnecessary words to describe and may have hurt people’s feelings.
Also, keep in mind that many of you post up pictures of your work and ask for comments. So, you have to expect that there will be comments that will pick on small mistakes as well as comments that will not.
I post builds here looking for feedback because I want to improve. There is a very fine line between feedback and criticism. I believe the line is crossed in the tone of the feedback. I think it is important to point out positives and points of need of improvment.
I have shown some of my models to receive comments. They have always been constructive also people have adjusted their remarks in keeping with my modeling skills.
So if you don’t like it; don’t post!..Kenny
TONE?!?! Well I do agree with everyone to the most part, but I do disagree with you Jmcmenamin! Unfortunately the critiques and honest opinions are INTERPRETED by the reader. No one wants to hear the truth about something they worked hard on, are initially proud of because THEY did it. They are psyched to read good job, yay, wow etc… However, a pointer or two thrown in there by people will take away the gusto the person showing his work feels “What do you mean my headlights are wrong?” “I busted my butt to get that part together, it can’t be wrong” etc… it changes the outlook the reader has, and unfortunately the people tend to put a negative stint on what’s being presented to said modeler. Again, there is NO tone in text, only to our eyes and our interpretation. I mean, if I say “hey!!! What’s up?” I could be saying hello, or what the heck is up with that piece of garbage" I bet you thought I was saying Hello! LOL Take it for what it is, stop moaning because someone doesn’t agree with your interpretation of things or wants to help you improve!
Perfect example. I don’t care for your tone.
I’ll go against the grain here a bit and say this forum has a very polite, constructive, group to give feedback. As previously mentioned, just because I may think the model is fair, doesn’t mean that someone else doesn’t think its great. I’m sure there’s other builds that I think is great, others will think its only poor. I guess much depends on the reveiwer’s skills. If I think a work is poor, I simply wont post - unless the poster asked for feedback. In that case, I’ll point out a specific thing that can be improved.
I’m part of a GB in 1/48 armor now, and have posted inbuild pictures. I’ve recieved critism on how I got parts of it wrong, and lucky I did as I was able to fix it before painting. All taken in the spirit it was given.
I usually adapt my constructive critisism to the level of the modeler who posted the model. I will not tell the same thing to a newbie who presents his first armor than to Heavyarty let’s say. And I’ll be very carefull also if I don’t know the person who posted it.
I think there are a few steps that a modeler should go through and he should be in control of the time it takes to get through these steps. You can point all the innaccuracies about a particular model, if the modeler intended to build it out-of-the-box and is not worrying about these details, why bother him with it. In these cases, I will comment on the execution of the basic techniques and will again take the experience of the modeler in consideration. It’s just a matter of keeping the modeler proud of his models and interested to go further.
think you pretty much nailed that one.
on the other end of the spectrum, i think i’ve actually seen this phenomenon: someone (not me, someone) posts an outstanding bit of work on something that might not be a very popular subject. it might get a few “yey” and “neat” comments now and then but nowhere near as much as someone doing nominal work on the usual panzer 4. That head-patting will span 3 forum pages. now i’m not against panzer 4’s but it actually seems like people prefer to support mediocre work.
ah well…
I couldn’t agree more with ya Goat Monkey!
I too have seen this, but do not believe it has as much to do with mediocre work as it does with the subject itself, where the reason can be either lack of knowledge of a particular subject or lack of interest. I think there are posters here who are guilty of that, but don’t get me wrong…I don’t mean this in a bad way. It’s just human nature. I will not usually comment on armor models - 1, because I am not that interested in them, and 2, because of my lack of knowledge on the subject (which sort of goes hand-in-hand with my lack of interest). Those who delve lightly into other subjects may be more familiar with the popular or well-known vehicles, but unaware of any inaccuracies. I know what a Panzer IV is, and will comment on one if it catches my eye in a certain way, but only on the construction basics and what I found appealing about it.
…and concerning what Rob said about criticism not being tolerated here in any way, I must respectfully disagree, unless he was referring to the armor forum, in which case I will retract that statement because I don’t hang out here much and am unaware of the many posting styles, therefore rendering me underqualified to refute it. However, there are plenty who literally ask for criticism on the aircraft forum.