Cockpit detailing questions - P51

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
1

Greetings… Im back to modeling after a 20 year hiatus. Im building the Revel 1:48 P-51D Kit; I know its low end, but I rather practice new techniques with this one before I try other more advanced kits. Im putting together the cockpit area and have a few questions:

  1. I tried to “wet paint” the dials (white), as well as “dry brush” the raised instrument panel (with silver). I painted the whole instrumentation panel flat black (all enamels). Should I have wiped the black off the “raised” areas before trying to highlight the instrument panel? Why do we 'wet paint" with white, but “dry brush” with silver? (I know you usually dont do BOTH but I was trying both techniques :wink:

  2. I used green zinc chromate for the seat and cockpit internal sides, as per instructions. However, they look too “green”. What is the prefer “green” for internal cockpits of WW2 planes? “Interior Green” (Model masters FS34151)? Can I simply paint a new color on top?

  3. Im following some of the excellent instructions and examples in here:

http://www.world-war-2-airplane-model.com/cockpit.html

http://www.swannysmodels.com/P51dYellow.html

Do you “seal” your paint with clear gloss/Future after each detailing step? Paint, then clear gloss, then wash, then clear gloss, then weather, then gloss again? Should the last pass be DULL coat instead?

  1. I read several places to dip the canopy in Future before placing. My apologies, but i could not find anywhere how many “coats” I should do… is ONE dip ONE coat? That is, dip the canopy, drip dry, then dip again? (I dont have an airbrush, so I spray/brush paint everything).

  2. I will try some “scratchbuilt” seatbelts/harness for the seat using tape strips. Should I gloss coat the seat first? I assume I dont dip the seatbelts in Future!

  3. Can someone recommend a good “color” for the wash? I assume I will use a differnt one for the internal cockpit details, and a different wash composition for the external fuselage details. I found info on the ratios and a How To, but cant seem to find the color scheme… I will spray paint the fuselage Silver.

  4. My Model Masters “Wood” enamel does not, well, look much as “wood” (for the cockpit floor). Any tricks on making a 'wood" floor look more like, well, wood?

Sorry the amount of questions and their basic nature! Thanks in advance…

Jim

2

Maybe this will help with the wood. I painted my B17 table with “wood” from model master acryls. When dried I overcoated (by brush) with a mixture of burnt sienna oil paint from windsor newton thinned with oderless turpenoid. It will streak like wood and you can play with it a little until you are pleased with it. Other suggestion is to use 1/64 balsa overlays or 1/64 plywood for airplane models.

Goto photobucket.com and search for “jamalone” to view my entire album of B17 shots.

Hope this helps. Just one way of many. Certainly not the best builder here by a long shot though. Just my 2 cents.

Aaron

3

An easy out on the floorboards is to paint them flat black, or even satin black, as most P-51D’s were done that way at the factory. Many restorations are varnished plywood but that was not the usual wartime practice.

I don’t usually put a clearcoat on interior parts, but I am not an advanced weathering type yet. I do put on a clear coat (Future) before decalling. Some people follow decals with another coat of future, if I do it is just over the decals. Washes are done after the clear coat on the exterior. A flat coat is applied before weathering with pastels so they will adhere, a gloss coat will not be a good base for them. Then a final flat coat is done. Doing your planning so that the minimum coats of paint go on is going to result in the best retention of surface detail.

One dip of the canopy in Future is enough. There was a good article on using future in a recent issue of FSM. Be sure to draw off the excess future to a paper towel from a corner of the canopy so it doesn’t build up there. Cover it and let it dry 24 hours.

Zinc Chromate Green can be many different shades from green to yellow, but it was not as common as Interior Green in cockpits. Interior Green varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. Chromate Green was mostly used as an interior structure anticorrosion treatment, seen in wheel wells and inside wings and fuselages, or engine cowls. Working from photos is best, but don’t let fears of absolute accuracy prevent you from enjoying your modelling. There is more confusion than truth in what we have to document what colors were used where in the past. I just go with what seems to be the conscensus when I am building a model. As soon as I paint it I know someone will come along and have proof that the herd was in error!

4

Drybrushing can be done with any colour; you seem to have been given some duff information, there. I might be misreading your enquiry, but I get the impression that you think that a/c instrument faces are white, with silver markings. They are not; the face is black, with, usually, white markings, and needle tips. Occasionally there will be a red, or green, line, somewhere on the outside. It is perfectly feasible to paint the whole thing black, then drybrush white onto the raised detail. I never varnish any of the cockpit, except for tiny drops, into the instrument faces, to simulate glass.

Interior green was made by adding black to Chromate Yellow. (Most “black” dyes are, in fact blue-black, and blue + yellow = green.) I’m not sure if this is true, for wartime primer, but modern stuff only has a pot-life of 8 hours. This would mean that three batches would be needed in a 24-hour working day; can anyone guarantee that every mix was identical? Some time ago, I experimented, with the yellow primer, and, by adding tiny drops, of black, to the original mix, I got a good interior green, then a bronze green, then an olive drab. There is also the problem that the modern yellow darkens, with age; did the wartime yellow, (and green,) have the same property?

John’s prefectly correct, regarding the floor; the P-51, hanging up in the Imperial War Museum, has a black floor, with the wood showing through the scuffed area. One method, that I’ve used, for wood, is to paint the light brown, then, when it’s thoroughly dry, paint a thinned coat, of the darker brown, and, while it’s still wet, lightly press your finger into it. In 1/48th., your fingerprint will give a good impression of wood grain.

Edgar

5

JMart, your best bet may to pick up a book detailing the various P-51s. I just picked up a book from the Squadron/Signal “Walk Around” series for the Hellcat I’m working on. There are a lot of variations in planes as some changes were made for particular reasons and were only made on a handfull of planes while some were done as one-offs.

Go through the book and pick one plane to replicate. That way, you don’t have to worry about what is usually right on other planes. As long as you replicate the one you chose, you can’t be wrong.

-Fred

6

All the above are spot on, I will only add that, if I really want a wood grain finish, I use a bit of the cedar veneeer that is used to line cigar tubes - it IS wood and after careful gluing to the surface, a light coat of clear seals it just like varnished plywood (good for table tops, WWII floors. etc.) Just my [2c] !

Brian [C):-)]

7

jamalone - Nice work, thanks for the tip… will try your suggestion on my next “practice round”. I also have some leftover balsa from a plane I built with my kid, never thought of using THAT… thanks!

jeaton01 - Thanks for your suggestion about weathering/washes… makes sense, I will try that on my “practice” plane. Thanks for the canopy/Future protocol; I just subscribed to FSM, missed that article! Finally, thanks for the color information, I dont have a good “mental” color palette… and I model for relaxation and fun (and with my kid!), Im happy just painting and gluing and brushing! : )

Edgar - Thanks for the instrument panel info; for sure the dry brushed dials look better, so Ill stick to that. Ditto for the color info; been awhile since Ive been to any AF museum, dont recall interior details! :frowning: Love the wood grain suggestion… I want to figure out how to “paint” wood also because my youngest wants to build a pirate ship!

Gigatron - Fred, thanks for the suggestion… next time I visit a Military museum, i will fill up my new digital camera so I have my own 'book"!

brain44 - Brian, thanks for another good 'wood" idea… my wife already makes fun of me since I started to pick up 'stuff" usually sent to the garbage… wine bottle foils, caps, etc… I have a good list to keep handy next time I browse some garage sales! Thanks.

8

Having had some passing contact with museums and restored aircraft I offer two words of advice: be cautious. Just because a museum restored something doesn’t mean it was restored to factory specifications.

So, if you use a “restored” aircraft to determine colors – or even equipment installed – it could be wrong. Your best bet is a photo taken at the time you’re depicting. One location (to remain nameless) “restored” a twin-engine WW2 warbird for display and put two different propellers on it. This same activity “restored” an AC-47 which turned out to be a VIP transport that was “modified” by the restoration activity to look like an AC-47.

IIRC, the “walk around” series of publications show either flying restored warbirds or museum restorations so use caution when using them as modeling data sources.

The Model Master interior green is a good match for most WW2 aircraft toward the middle-to-late war. Some aircraft had a bronze green cockpit area but I believe these to be the early war aircraft. I use Model Master European Dark Green (34092) for bronze green; it’s close enough not to worry about. Green zinc chromate is definitely NOT a color for cockpits.

On the simulated wood, I use Model Master “Wood” as a base coat. After letting it dry for a day, I use a thin coat of burnt sienna oil paint and let it dry several days. Then I follow with a coat of burnt umber oil paint and let it dry several more days. (Or do I have the order wrong on the oil paints? Use the darker shade first.) At any rate, when applying the oils, don’t worry about brush marks – they’ll be the “grain” on the finished product. Just go lightly with the oils and allow lots of drying time between coats.

That’s my 2 cents.

9

The “Walk Around” (for the Hellcat, at least) has pictures of both restored planes and period stock photos (good for seeing what was in/on the bird, but not so much for color).

But there are a few different series of books. There’s “walk around”, “in action” and one other, I believe. Between the 3 of them, you should have more than enough reference material to build a period correct model.

But I guess that’s something else to consider. Do you build it correct to the year it was in service or correct to the year it was restored?

-Fred

10

That would be the “Detail & Scale” Vol. 49, another nice Hellcat reference. They published two of those for the Mustang.

11

Thanks for that info, Mike [:D]. I’m going to see if I can find that. Amamzon had Detail & Scale Vol. 26 (I think) through a second hand dealer who wanted $200 for it. To do one model? No thanks.

-Fred

12

Any time, Fred! [:D] In fact, I’m thinking you should go for Vol. 49 for the Hellcat instead…it’s cheaper (saw it there for as low as $12.95) and it has a nice write-up on accurizing the 1/48 Hasegawa kit.

13

Well, I’m sold. Even though I’m doing the 1/32, there are still alot of questions I have about this plane.

I’m doing the Minsi III (only bird I can find consistent pictures of), but there are some things that are throwing me for a loop. All the directions and pictures of other 'cats show the pitot tube being red, but on the minsi, I don’t even see the tube (but that may be a change in the rstoration).

-Fred