Can I start a new thread about building HMS Surprise?

Modeling Subjects Ships
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Or would I be shouted down, as that dead horse already having been beaten to death? Well, here goes anyway…

I have recently acquired the Lindberg “Jolly Roger” kit and am considering doing her up as HMS Surprise of the Aubrey/Maturin books ( I’m on No. #17 now). I have read the previous threads about the Surprise/JR here on FSM and have some more questions, if you please:

Does anybody (aftermarket) make better blocks than those huge plastic donuts that come with the kit? I remember as a young lad (ca. 1965-68) building the Revell Kearsarge with those nice blocks they had.

As another previous poster asked, what about pinrails? Are the rail sections atop the hull sides supposed to function as pinrails? Seems cheesy to me.

The Surprise was copper-bottomed, the JR has wood-grain showing on the bottom. Has anybody addressed this problem?

Other than by buying a second kit, can I get additional 1/130 ship’s boats somewhere?

And finally, does anyone have a scale drawing of the real HMS Surprise, and/or of a rigging diagram thereof?

Yes, I ask much. But as a recent O’Brian convert and a scale modeler, I feel like I kinda have to do a model of the ol’ barky. I’m now mostly an aircraft and steel navy guy, but I still love the age of sail, and built many a tall sailer in my younger days. Any assistance would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Weasel

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You won’t get an argument from me. I would love to see these questions answered. We have had some discussions about blocks. Model Expo and Bluejacket offer replacements.

I too am an O’Brian convert. I have only read the first two though!

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I think it will be great to have another thread about this. I was also thinking about doing this same conversion some day and would love to see others go through it first! I recently watched the DVD and paid close attention to some of the ship details. I noticed that there was also some system of netting on the decks behind the rails. Can anyone describe these? I wondered if this was where extra sails or maybe hammocks were stored. I read somewhere that sometimes this stuff was placed on deck as a form of “sandbagging” (sorry, I’m still a grunt) before an engagement. It seems like there are a lot of interesting details that will make the model unique. I found a website about the ship used in the film. It has many great photos and a virtual tour of the ship that looks like it would be a great help. There was even a photo of the hull of the Acheron on this site:

http://www.tallshiprose.org/index.html

I hope this is some help. Sorry if this stuff was covered in another thread. I’m new at this. Good luck on your conversion. I’m looking forward to your build!

Devin

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I have no idea what the Lindberg “Jolly Roger” is supposed to represent as I am not familar with the kit, but if you hope to do a reasonably accurate rendition of Surprise then I encourage you to read through the Aubrey/Maturin books comprehensively. O’ Brian’s research is held to be very very good, and you’ll get a lot of details of her rig, deck set up etc just by reading the novels, which in of themselves are a total treat.

Surprise was an actual ship. Her lines were taken off by the Admiralty when she was taken from the French. Brian Lavery has an excellent essay titled ‘Jack Aubrey’s Ships’ in the book Patrick O’Brian: Critical Essays and a Bibliography, edited by AE Cunningham, ISBN#0-393-03626-X, WW NortonCo., 1994. He explores Surprise in helpful detail in 7 1/2 pages, and there’s a doublefold lines drawing spread of her hull profile, sections, and a cutaway.

Lavery also authored the excellent The Arming and Fitting of the English Ship of War, Conway Maritime, 1987, which you’ll find helpful as well. There are other books on typical period rigging practices, but if you go into it that deep then forget kit bashing the Jolly Roger, you won’t be satisfied with the result.

I have been amazed for years that no one has come out with a kit of Surprise in plastic, resin, or wood. They’d have made a tidy penny, and no royalties would be owed to WW Norton or O’Brian’s estate because she was a historical ship with published lines.

Good luck with your project-

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Please do! Even though the Jolly Rodger has been done many times, each builder has a different take on the ship. I haven’t seen the kit converted to the HMS Surprise, so I think it would be a wonderful project for everyone to see.

This forum is not necessarily for showing off a particular model, but for the exchange of skills and views on the craft of modelling itself. Personally, I welcome everyone’s take on the art, no matter what they build. Plus, the more long term projects that are posted here the better. I’m doing the Soleil Royal (when I actually have free time). It’s been done here before and is not a very welcome kit by some because of it’s historical inaccuracies. But, everyone here welcomed me warmly.

So go ahead, take as many pics as possible and post as often as you can. I would love to get some ideas on how to improve what I do…

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The Lindberg “Jolly Roger” is a reissue of a sixties-vintage kit that was intended to represent an eighteenth-century French frigate named La Flore. We’ve discussed it in several good threads in this Forum. If you do a search on you’ll find all sorts of info about the history of the real ship (which is a matter of some controversy) and tips on improving the kit. But - the more, the merrier. I personally think it’s great to see how several modelers go about tackling the same subject.

Several companies sell aftermarket blocks, deadeyes, and other fittings that will come in handy on a project like this. My personal favorites are the Britannia metal fittings from Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ). They aren’t cheap, and do require cleanup and painting, but they’re beautiful castings and will go a long way toward making a classy model.

The kit shows its age and has some problems, but it really isn’t a bad one. As you’ll see from the other threads, it certainly can form the basis for a fine, serious scale model.

Good luck. It’s a great hobby.

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Master Sergeant Don Ferguson from US Marine Corps, who also works as part of the crew of Rose/Surprise replica in San Diego naval museum also is doing that same conversion and has gone a lot of way in his project. You can see his work here: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/sail/surprise-130-df/df-index.html

Feel free to contact him, he’s an extraordinary, utmost kind gentleman. He’s ready to help anyone who looks for help. I also call to Ctulhu (sorry for pun [:D]) if he could contact with Don. “Top” was last looking for him in the steelnavy message board to learn the secret of making realistic paper sails [:)]

all my best, best regards to everybody.

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I corresponded early last year with another generous gentleman from California named Bill Luther, who had helped started an HMS Surprise SIG (Special Interest Group) with the San Diego Ship Modelers’ Guild. He sent me a detailed e-mail with some good information, which I have attached below (I don’t think he would mind). He also sent me a couple really excellent line drawings of the Surprise, including the one he references below that was scaled to fit the Jolly Roger kit hull.

"Greetings fellow Surpriser’s,

As most of you know the HMS Surprise Special Interest Group of the San Diego Ship Modelers Guild (or HMSSSIGSDSMG for short) held it’s first meeting in the model shop of the Ferry Vessel Berkley, this Saturday last. Attended by Chari Wessel, Don Bienvenue, Robert Hewitt and yours truly, we discussed various aspects of our quest to model the HMS Surprise of Patrick O’Brian’s famous canon.

The relationship between the fictional HMS Surprise and the various real Surprises of the British Navy was the first topic of discussion. It is has been generally accepted the Surprise of Patrick O’Brian is based on the ex-French frigate Unite, built in 1794 and captured by the British in 1796 to become the HMS Surprise (1796-1802). But,…It seems Jack Aubrey served as a midshipman aboard O’Brian’s Surprise at a time BEFORE the Unite was built and as her captain after she was sold out of the navy in 1802. Some of the characteristics of O’Brian’s Surprise seem to match the Surprise of 1774-1783, a sister ship to the, Taa Daa! HMS Rose, the “replica” of which happened to play the part of the Surprise in the movie. It appears to me O’Brain’s Surprise was an amalgamation of the two Suprises. When trying to model the Surprise using the Lindberg “Jolly Roger”, you are starting with a ship much closer to the Unite, than the Rose. This is not surprising (no pun intended) in as much as the “Jolly Roger” is really a model of the French frigate La Flore. As I have mentioned, I plan to model my Surprise on the paintings and sketches of Geoff Hunt. Hunt’s Surprise is based closely on the ex-Unite Surprise. I took his profile sketch of the Surprise, found in his book, The Marine Art of Geoff Hunt, and enlarged it to 1:133 scale and then set the kit’s strb’d half hull over it, it is almost an exact match! the main difference is the number of gun ports, the kit having 2 too many. Each of us will have to decide how to deal the extra gun ports, we’ll consider that particular problem at future meeting.

Cannons were the next item on the agenda. So far we’ve come up with 5 possible armaments for “our” Surprise:

1) The ex-Unite, Surprise, was originally intended to carry 24, 9 pound long guns on the gun deck +8, 4 pound L guns & 2, 12 pound carronades on the quarter deck +2, 9 pound L guns & 2 18 carronades on the focs’l. 1a) A variation on this calls for 8, 4 pounders +4, 12 pound carronades on the qtr dk & 2, 4 pound L guns & 2, 12 pound carronades

2) It appears she ultimately carried 24, 32 carronades on the gun deck +8, 18 pound carronades on the quarter deck +2, 6 pound L guns on the focs’l

3) I have a diagram from Bruce Trinque’s web site that shows 22, 12 pounders on the gun deck +8, 32 pound carronades on the quarter deck +4, 32 pound carronade & 2, 9 pound L guns on the foredeck.

4) Notes on Geoff Hunts sketch of the Surprise, calls for 24, 18 pound carronades on the gun deck +8, 18 pound carronades on the Quarter deck +4, 6 pound L guns on the focs’l.

None of these armaments include the pair of 9 pound L gun, stern chasers mentioned in the great cabin on occasion.

Whichever armament arrangement is chosen, the big problem is the fact that the “Jolly Roger” only comes with long guns, and only for the gun deck, no-provisions are made for guns on the quarter deck & focs’l. This has sent us on a search for carronades, we’ll discuss the results of our search the next time we get together. In the mean time keep an eye out for carronades ~ 5/16" to 3/8" long for the 32 pounders and ~1/4" long for the smaller carronades. The caliber of the long guns included with the “Jolly Roger” is still under investigation.

A few other questions were discussed, such as, was the Surprise’s bottom coppered? The consensus is yes but we are looking for more evidence to support that conclusion. Spars and rigging are an area we talked about but as yet no one has analyzed the kit’s rig to determine how close it is to O’Brian’s Surprise."

Real life being what it is, after I received the drawings and realized the extent of the project I kind of set it aside and the kit has been sitting in my workroom ever since. In addition to the carronade and gunport problem, if you want to build a Geoff Hunt-style Surprise, the stern gallery needs to be re-done.

But having just corresponded with Don Ferguson over the last week or two regarding Greg Ewald’s excellent paper sails, I’m starting to get excited about the Surprise again. Does anybody know how far along the San Diegans have gotten with their group build?

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Hi all, and thanks for the replies!

I hope my original post did not give an incorrect impression that I was startig a “build thread” of the Surprise. Far from it, I am trying to decide whether to commit to staring a conversion of the Lindberg “Jolly Roger” to the Surprise. I haven’t done a sailing ship for decades, but that’s not for lack of interest. It’s just that my modeling time is limited and I want to determine that if I commit to this project it will be worth it.

I fully understand the sentiment that if I go all-out on the rigging etc. the kit will end up lacking, just because it’s a so-so kit and can’t be improved. Nonetheless, I have ordered the Cunningham book as a reference; the drawings you describe sound exactly like what I am looking for. I thank you for the reference (FYI for all, it is out-of-print, but I got one cheap at Amazon).

Part of my problem is deciding what level of “accuracy” I want to acheive. After all, which “Surprise” are we talking about: 1) The real 1790s Surprise (the French Unite); 2) HMS Rose, the Surprise movie stand-in; 3) the LeFlore, the supposed prototype for the Lindberg kit; or 4) Surprise as presented in written description by O’Brian?

Anyway, I await my reference book, and will keep posting. Thanks again for all the input.

Weasel

P.S.: I’m amazed at the interest in sail ships on this board. I don’t see that at other ship boards. Nice.

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I have built two of the Lindberg kits. One OOB and one as a Bristish converted 32 to represent a fictitional frigate from an Alexander Kent novel.

As what Mr Luther has pointed out, the differences of the British frigate and a French frigate are quite noticable. The British would mix long guns with carronades and put the latter on the upper decks to be used when closing in on an engagement. Also, it seems that details of the captured ship such as bulwarks and transome would be changed, or enlargened to meet Royal Navy requirements for trim and style. These modifications would seem obvious in order to carry the heavier guns on the weather decks and to further accomodate the administrative functions for the ship.

One modification that I wish I had done was to cut the stern off and build a new transome, tumblehome, and galley. I did enlarge the bulwarks, but the finished model, when compared to period plans and drawings, still looks French and just isn’t right.

If I was to try to make this kit the Surprise, I would plan to be doing a lot of scatchbuilding, and use just the hull and maybe part of the deck as a guide. However, I do seem to enjoy kit bashing a plastic kit with wood and other materials much more than the traditional start from scratch or just build OOB.

Scott

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Hey, interesting idea - Phalarope or Tempest? I always wondered whether it might be worth the while to build a Sparrow with her two 32pdrs and oars.

Jorit

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Actually, there is a kit on the market for HMS Surprise… check it out at:

http://www.modelsailingships.com/ships/hms.html

Start saving your pennies… put all of those kits you have stashed in the rafters in your garage on ebay… sell your kids for medical research, whatever, this puppy retails for almost $3400.

But how many of your models have firing cannons?

http://www.modelsailingships.com/update/index.html

For those of you, like me, that will have to settle for the Lindberg boat, the basic mods include:

  1. sectioning the hull… if you cut out a section with the fifth and sixth gunports from the bow, the hull can be rejoined leaving 13 gunports (the model will scale out at about 1/150th with 9.8" on the gundeck). The cross section in this area is virtually constant. I reinforced the joint with Evergreen strips inside and putty outside. The main wale on the starboard side matches up almost perfectly, the wale on the port side takes a little putty and contouring.

2.) living with 13 ports or fill in the aft gun port, too close to the quarter gallery anyway, to get 12 ports. Removing the two ports also provides a more representative length/breadth ratio, the Lindberg ship is too skinny.

3.) closing in the bow… get rid of the beakhead bulkhead and use some surgery and Evergreen styrene to plank up the bow to a pointy shape. Make a temporary foc’sl deck to act as a guide / support. Don’t worry about continuing the raised planking lines… they are way out of scale and need to be removed anyway. Putty and fair in the new bow. At this scale, planking would not be that visible.

4.) fill the holes for the chain plates, sand the fenders and the goofy looking ladder off of the hull and replace with styrene strip… add a ‘waist rail’, thin (~same size as channel rails) raised wale running from bow to quarter galleries, bisecting the gun ports amidships and running parallel to the channel rails. New fender and gangway step locations per your references or preferences… I laid out mine per a ‘typical’ British small frigate with steps in front of the 6th port from the stern (5th if you fill in the aft port), two fenders fwd. of the 7th gun port and a single fender fwd. of the 10th gunport.

5.) fabricate new decks using the kit versions for templates… (mast locations change with the modified hull, the grating detail on the JR decks is way out of scale and the British eliminated the French capstans on the foc’sl deck in their rebuilds and placed captsans on the Qdeck through to the gun deck). Evergreen scribed railroad siding sheets make a convenient decking.

6.) rework the quarter galleries and stern galleries for square windows, reshape the stern transom shape. Sand window details flush and rebuild with evergreen strip.

7.) relocate mast locations per Steel’s tables (or plans if available, I haven’t seen the Surprise plans referenced in this thread). Masts and yards could be resized based on Steel’s rules (reprint of the 1794 edition of “Steel’s Elements of Mastmaking, Sailmaking and Rigging” - available for $25 - 50 on WWW.ADDALL.COM on their used book page… if you are serious about modeling this period, this book is essential). Note Quarterdeck length will change with the new main mast location and new locations for shroud channels will be required.

8.) build bulwarks on the quarterdeck using evergreen strip

9.) detail per your research and/or fancy. Russel Crowe’s Surprise had long 9 pounders on the gundeck, the historical Surprise was listed with 24 X 32 pdr. carronades on the gun deck. The kit supplied guns are reasonable for 9 pdrs. The Lindberg hull is sans hawse holes, so they need to be drilled. Like most plastic models it is virtually devoid of gun deck furniture (such as riding bitts). Also the modeler has to decide whether to use skid beams or an enclosed waist spar deck… either way, the ships boats move from the gundeck to the upper deck. and as mentioned on another JR thread, details for things such as anchors are different for British and French… it can go as far as your budget and interest lead you.

As for other questions in the thread

Pin rails were introduced about 15 to 20 years after La Flore was built. For the Surprise, you need to add them for the mizzen and main masts… inside the raised bulwarks. For the foremast (no bulwarks), I think shroud cleats would be appropriate.

The bottom of the vessel would have been coppered… whether coppered or not, sand off the planking, it’s so out of scale it’s cheesy. At this scale ~1/150th, I wouldn’t worry about the plating texture, just paint the lower hull with copper, and maybe ‘age’ it as described in other threads in this forum.

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HMS Undine, from Command a King’s Ship. The Undine was described as a few feet shorter than Phalarope and built of French design. This book was one of my favorites of the series.

Scott

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Speaking of the Aubrey/Maturin books, I have read only 5 of them ( I couldn’t find any more translations into Dutch of the rest of them) and I remember on ship Aubrey was given command of, the name was rather strange and I don’t remember it exactly but I looked on the internet for the explanation of the that name and it was some ancient celtic queen from what is now called England.
However, the ship was described as beeing very strange, where (quote) one can hardly tell wether she coming or going (end quote) I was wondering if there was a historical ship on which this is based or if it is strictly fiction.
aha, I think the name was something in the line of “Boadicea” or something sounding similar…

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Wow. So I guess converting the Lindberg JR into a reasonably accurate Surprise isn’t exactly a one-weekend project. Actually, I knew full well it wouldn’t be, but didn’t realize all the changes necessary, especially sectioning the hull and reshaping the bow. That’s a LOT of work. It also sounds like getting a second kit would be desirable for the extra ship’s boats, cannons and carriages, spare spars, etc. It’s cheap enough. I wonder if the kit’s 9-pounders could be cut down to represent carronades?

I’m still waiting for the book with Surprise diagrams, and the barky will probably get sent to the back burner for a while. Frankly I’m a bit intimidated by the prospect of all that plastic surgery and THEN I still have to rig it! Well, we’ll see.

Thanks to all for your input. It’s exactly what I was looking for.

Weasel

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Hi,

I believe you are referring to the HMS Polychrest; Boadicea was another ship. Polychrest was fictional but based on an existing design with sliding keels. Not too successful.

Go here, this site covers all of Aubrey’s ships:

http://members.aol.com/batrnq/

But be warned, the text gives away the plot lines of all the books, so if you want to finish the series unspoiled, don’t read past HMS Surprise. HTH.

Weasel

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There is some sail interest here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeawaysShipmodelingList/

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Can you tell me what size the grating should be? I am thinking I can photoetch some new ones.

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Based on Boudriot (1744 Renomee and 1765 Belle Poule) and AOS ( Pandora and Alert) plans, nominal full scale grating would use ~2 inch wide planks, forming 2" X 2" openings.

The Jolly Roger model scales (1/133 to 1/150 depending on which feature you measure) out to 3.5 - 3.75 inch planks with 5.5 - 6 inch square openings… fairly dangerous for the crew having to work over them.

These should be easy to do in photo-etch, you just need to decide the scale (I would vote for 1/144 as a compromise and it’s a common scale for other models). Full scale ‘step’ between grating battens would be ~1 inch.

While you are at it, I think PE offers some good opportunities for deadeye/lanyard assemblies; probably the most difficult part of plastic sailing ship modeling, and completely missing from the JR.

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I found some interesting photos of “HMS Rose/HMS Surprise” at http://fortogden.com/surprise-deck1-r.jpg http://fortogden.com/surprise-deck2-r.jpg http://fortogden.com/surprise-gc-r.jpg http://fortogden.com/surprise-tumble-r.jpg http://fortogden.com/surprise-r.jpg

This is the movie version. To correctly build the quarter galleys is going to be a serious test of skill and perserverence. In fact, even the transom windows will not be easy, the lights in the center window are rectangular in the other six, they are parallelagrams, with increasing angles as they go outboard.

Pete