I need some opinions here…so here’s the background info…
It’s a commonly held belief that all steel-wheeled Tiger Is got the smaller 600mm idler wheel, although it’s a commonly known fact that at least one of Wittman’s Tigers had both steel wheels and 700mm idler, but I digress…
According to Jentz & Doyle’s Tiger book, steel wheels appeared on hull number 250822 starting in early February (pg.144).
On pg. 77 the text reads, “After changing over to the steel-tired roadwheels, a smaller diameter (600mm instead of 700mm) was introduced starting in February of 1944…”
It appears from reading the text that the smaller idler was installed “after” changing over to the steel wheels.
My point is…I am modeling Tiger I #312 from sPzAbt 505 that operated around Maciejow in mid-April of 1944. Based on the research I’ve done, her hull number is somewhere between 250823 and 250833, making it one the first steel-wheeled Tigers.
Production records indicate that the last Tiger of Jan. 44 production was 250816, and the last Tiger I of Feb. was 250911. This puts 250822-250833 somewhere in the first week of Feb. production.
Furthermore, when you look at the chart on pg. 83 of Jentz and Doyle’s Tiger book, the graph shows the installation of steel wheels as being longer than the installation of the 600mm idler.
This tells me that initially, the first steel-wheeled Tigers retained the 700mm idler (logically).
Can anyone provide photographic evidence that sPzAbt. 505 Tiger Is from the 250822-833 production batch actually had the larger 700mm idler, or some other documentation that actually pinpoints the first hull to recieve the smaller 600mm idler?
Jeff, first let me apologize for NOT having the answer. Just wanted to say that its one of those posts that truely seperate those of us who have crossed the line between hobby and obession! I have had similiar ‘showstoppers’ preventing me from starting a build in the past. Good luck with your biuld and please show us your finish product.
Actually, it’s one of those gray areas where it could be either one…and they’re noticeably different.
It would be my luck, after spending more than 500 hours on this model that some joker would point out that I had the wrong idler on it.
Btw, this is a 1/16 Tiger I from Tamiya, with a scratchbuilt interior and engine compartment, and the Backyard Armor Late Tiger conversion kit. I originally wanted to do 312 of sPzAbt 505, because the driver was neighbor back in NJ, who’s now in his late 80s. If it has the larger idler, it means I can use the one in the kit. If it doesn’t then I have to spend some additional funds on the correct idler for that vehicle.
If I can’t get a definitive answer, then I might just do Wittmann’s 007 tank he was killed in at Villers-Bocage (this last sentence should ignite another historical controversy).
Well Jeff you know how to ask the right questions. I went through Tadeusz Mellemans Tiger books … all 4 volumes and nothing. It only mentions that steel roadwheels was installed from 250825. He has a drawing of a late tiger with a 700 mm idler wheel, but no chassis number.
Achtung panzer # 6 only says that the 600 mm idler wheel was installed in February 1944 so no help here either.
You’ve already looked in Thomas L. Jentz’s book.
No decent pics in Tigers in combat vol 1 & 2
No decent pics in Tigers at the front.
No decent pics in Tiger I on the eastern front or Tiger I on the western front.
Argh…you know what I meant…technically, it was Cintheaux, about 35 kilometers east of Villers-Bocage. [sigh]
Thanks for looking, I’m scouring a few other references myself. My next step is to call my pals at the Bundesarchive and see if there’s additional photos in that series. I’ve seen shots of tank 300 and 312 from the same angle, obviously the same photographer, so who knows, I might turn up something in a background photo.
wow. way over my head here. god I hope someday i can amass the amount of knowledge you have jeff… (and the amount of reference books.{and the amount of-ahh financial infrastructure necessary for the procurement of aformentioned informative literary material. [;)][B)]) A large vocabulary would be nice too… LOL. Good luck with the build Jeff and make sure you popst pictures of your always outstanding work.
Hmm i’d like to see a Tiger without idlerwheels. They were used there is no question about that, the only question is when did they begin using the 600 mm idler instead of the 700 mm. We know its in February 1944 but which chassis number was the first.
So far I’ve looked in
D.w to Tiger I
Tigers in combat Vol 1 & 2
Tigers at the front
Tiger I on the eastern front
Tiger I on the western front
Pz.Kpfw VI Tiger Vol 1 & 2 & 3 & 4
Achtung Panzer # 6
Tanks in detail # 5
Panzerkampfwagen Tiger ( German book )
and Tigers at war.
None of these books have anything concrete on this, some of them indicate that some late Tiger I’s had the 700 mm idlerwheel, but not how many and what chassis number was the first to have the 600 mm idler wheel.
Jentz and Doyle’s Germany’s Tiger Tanks, D.W. to Tiger I
Tigers in Combat I
Tigers in Combat II
Tiger - The History of a Legendary Weapon by Kleine and Kuhn (awesome book btw)
Tiger und Siene Abarten - Speilberger
The only book I’m lacking is the unit history of the 505 from Schiffer, I’m not sure if it’s even out yet (I have 501 and 502 in the series).
I didnt say they didnt use idlerwheels on Tigers smart guy! I said this site has some info on this subject and the small wheel would not be used on the tiger hes making
What he says about the idler wheel is that ; if you build the Dragon late tiger you shouldn’t use the larger idler wheel because the Dragon only comes with the 40 mm turret roof, and from what he knows only Tigers with the 25 mm turret roof had the small idler wheels.
Actually, it was the 503 (too many books here, sorry)…but the 505 book is now out…I do have copies of the 501 and 502 unit histories, but they’re in German.
Ahh ok I got both, the picture i posted is from the 505 book, but they are not unit histories, they are more like personal accounts from the 2 gentlemen Alfred Rubbel and Horst Krönke. When I said the 503 unit history I meant this one … and its great.
Actually, I sent him an email, since one of Wittman’s Tigers had both the 700mm idler, steel wheels, and 40mm two-piece turret roof with the rain slits on the commander’s cupola. Trouble is, it’s officially categorized as a Befehlswagen, so chances are it was a refurbished tank assembled from a mish-mosh of avilable components.
I have had similiar ‘showstoppers’ preventing me from starting a build in the past. Good luck with your biuld and please show us your finish product.
