Spruesome - I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the White Ensign Colourcoats Zero paints.
Is AK Interactive’s new WWII IJN Aircraft Colors set a decent representation of colors for the Zero? I have a build planned and picked up the AK set to ease hunting the colors down separately.
I am not building an actual Zero but rather a Hollywood Zero based on a T-6 Texan but wanted the colors and markings to be accurate for a WWII Zero.
Coogrfan and Deattilio, I have generally refrained from advising people what model paints to use (as opposed to what paints not to use) because color selection is like choosing a hat or sunglasses. It’s a very personal thing. It depends on what sort of model you’re making and what your modelling philosophy is. That is why I cringe when I see modellers telling other modellers what paints to use, without at least getting a feel for the builder’s goals.
Around 2000, one man told me that I needed to use Polly Scale “Concrete” for a Model 21 Zero. No reason was given as to why. He did not ask me if I wanted to make a new plane in Japan, a four-month-old plane at Lae, or a two-year old derelict. He did not ask me if I wanted to make a diorama, where time of day, lighting and cloud cover might be important. He did not ask me if I was making a Mitsubishi-built plane or the somewhat later Nakajima-built Model 21. He did not ask me about my display lighting, which really affects coloring. Still, he “just knew” that I what I needed was Polly Scale Concrete. (Incidentally, it’s no longer being made.)
Besides, I am not familiar with what’s under those two caps or with AK Interactive. I often use Testor’s dinosaur paints, the ones in the quarter-ounce bottles with square bottoms. Gloss paint saves me the trouble of glossing something up for decals. I custom mix. It’s fun to custom mix. “Try it; you’ll like it.”
I am flattered to be asked, but I won’t recommend any of the above. I will say, though, that I like the color on the cap of that upper tin, Coogrfan. I’d be tempted to investigate it further, see if it has some gloss or how it looks under semi-gloss clear and matt clear; see how it behaves under the intended display lighting; check whether I can see even a trace of burnt orange. I wouldn’t accept it for a NEW Mitsubishi-built Model 21 if it didn’t have at least a trace of burnt orange or brown. “Trace” means a negligible amount.
I can at least tell you, since you ask me, if I think you look silly in a particular hat or sunglasses. For the exterior of a Zero, that sort of Panzer yellow one by White Ensign does not compute. How did they label it? They don’t recommend it for the Zero, do they?
I think you have your idea of “help” all backwards. The way you word is just on the border of insulting to people that have tried to help others choose colors, but not quite over that line.
I really have no use for a list of paints that “won’t work according to someone” to paint a model when I ask what color I need. I already know 400 model colors that “aren’t close enough”. (every modeler does)
Even if I get 5 different answers that hit at or near my ballpark goal,that still steers me somewhere closer than I was when I asked. As for that “didn’t ask”, with 16 different possible times for the color’s usage,we are hardly ever told that, all we ever see is “what do I need to buy for an acrylic Blue Gray for the Wildcat”.
One other thing that you mentioned when you called Nick’s paint articles “Quasi Science” is that the paint is only a match in some conditions. That is true,and it is true for ALL hobby paints on EVERY built model. That is because we don’t have to match the parameters of paint performance that the prototype paint did in actual usage, and we don’t have to match the actual paint formula with our hobby paints. (that is a straw man argument, in other words) No hobby paint ever produced had to be the exact color as the FS chip (for example) in all the lighting parameters specified, and then be tough in the rain, in sunshine, with the least amount of corrosion, or anti-chalking, hammer resistant (yes, USN was "ding-less, just like a muscle car repaint)
I am just going to keep right on giving straight answers to the color questions, such as “XYZ is a match, but ABC missed the mark”, and even show a photo of the standard with the hobby color up against it. I figure that modelers are then intelligent enough to decide with the evidence right before their eyes.
Rex (yeah, “Quasi Science” lit me off, lol)
Ah yes, Polly Scale/Floquil Aged Concrete… Unfortunately those paints are OOP. BUT… Testors has re introduced the colors in the few Railroad colors recently issued under their railroad colorss in their expanded Model Master acrylics. I found some at a very old railroad hobby shop which I recently took a peek into.
So for those not trying to model a new A6M2 on the deck of Akagi as she sailed across the nothern Pacific in heavy fog of 3pm of December 6 1941, that is an option open to you.
Yea, I don’t think we want weathered paint in the bottle, since many modellers do incorporate some form of weathering in their finishing techniques. An approximate match to factory paint(s) would we nice, but seems to be another one of those holy grails.
regards,
Jack
Tarnship, I don’t think I said that Mr. Millman’s paint articles are pseudo-science. Actually, I was thinking of the entirety of the published remarks in English about the relics over the last 18 years and recalling that among the analysis there is some that I consider pseudo-scientific analysis. I made a point of not singling anyone out about that, and I’d be grateful if you would not put words in my mouth.
I have no way of knowing how you yourself offer advice to modellers, Tarnship. I hope it is not with the haste in which you replied to me here.
As I said above, I have not seen any new Zero airplane. However, I have been witness to most of the relevant comments about the color of the Zero since Mr. Lansdale’s first article came out around first quarter of 1996. I and a small number of others, including Mr. Millman, challenged some of his thinking on the subject in writing and on J-Aircraft.com. We did so independently. In fact, I hinted above that Mr. Millman and I share some of the same ideas.
The American modeller who is not steeped in all of this discussion is at a disadvantage, which is on top of the disadvantage of never having seen a new Zero in the flesh, and some other disadvantages. But to someone like me who has been steeped in it, there has just been way too much of it over the years and for me it has grown tiresome. (Robert Mikesh won’t even comment on it.) Much of the analysis would be bewildering to the uninitiated. At times it has reached “my measuring device is better than your measuring device.” I cannot blame any modeller who is thinking in the back of his mind, “Spare me the details. Just tell me what model paint to use.”
I’m sure I have nothing more of value to say on this subject, so seconding Jack’s reference to a Holy Grail, I’ll finish my part of this thread here.
from the post at 8:26 AM above
“The problem with Nick’s chips or anyone else’s, and the pseudo-science revolving around relics, the color measurements, the use of Japanese color words, and all of the other pencil sharpening to find The One True Color, is that there is not just one true color.”
and on that subject of “being grateful not to have words put into one’s mouth”,I think I would like that exact same thing (it seems fair, but I am probably wrong about that, somehow)
I did spell out exactly what my favorite way to convey matches was in a post up above
" and even show a photo of the standard with the hobby color up against it. I figure that modelers are then intelligent enough to decide with the evidence right before their eyes."
here is my method http://z15.invisionfree.com/Hangar_Deck_Resource/index.php?showtopic=12 (sorry this is not a real link,about 1/2 the time the “insert link” button is grayed out on here, there, got it on this edit)
Rex
Great discussion. I know, I forgot to snap a picture of this guy before I weathered it. Sorry folks. That said, the only thing that had been added to it was Flat white for the streaking. Jack, my XF-76 bottle looks nothing like the example you have transposed here. Perhaps its my lighting but I get no green out of this color at all (as seen by the photo).
I’ve heard about the “Old Concrete” option. I’ve also read that a lightened RLM 02 is acceptable for an early zero. I personally won’t get involved in the Miitsubishi/Nakajima built, lighting, time of day and age differences of a color. I would loose interest in the hobby if I did. I rarely paint straight out of the bottle anyways and I tend to weather rather heavily. When all is said and done, it looks like a zero and I’m happy with that. If anything, we’ve learned to stop painting them white or light grey yeah?
An XF-76 painted Pearl Harbor zero is next so I’ll take pictures of the paint “raw”…
Joe
Yes, all of Tamiya’s “XF” line is flat. Their “X” line is gloss. You have to add a gloss coat for decaling anyways so this really isn’t an issue, at least for me. Interesting to know these early zeros were somewhat glossy for my PH build.
Joe
Joe, here is some photos of the first captured Zero (8 months before PO Koga’s Zero was discovered, July 9-10, 1942). Notice the shininess of the finish under the hangar lights.
I forgot that they had captured one in China before Koga’s… The lights reflection is very pronounced there. To me that would indicate a shiny or well polished surface. Each lamps reflection is very sharp and pronounced… Interesting…
I am just doing research for my 1/72 Airfix A6M2 of Koga’s Zero sitting on the dock at Dutch Harbor after being recovered by Lt. Thies and crew.
That should be a nice one to see… I am kinda interested in the Aleutian Rufes myself…
Thank for the response, Spruesome. For the record the White Ensign Paints I posted previously are labeled as follows:
1st photo: “Mitsubishi Zero Grey-Green” ACJ16.
2nd photo: “Nakajima Amber Grey (Ame-iro)” ACJ17
More details concerning this line can be found here:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/gregspringer/wem-review/wem-review.htm
I just wanted to chime and say I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. Some great info here and will definitely come in handy if I ever get to my Zero kit that’s been sitting on the shelf from six years ago. (Ha!) Thanks to all of you for adding to the discussion.
Chris
One thing I would add is not to get attached to the idea of using the White Ensign paints. I suspect that many here on the Aircraft board will not have heard the news that White Ensign is no more, as they were primarily a producer of ship stuff. While some things have been picked up (supposedly much of the PE is going to Tom’s Modelworks) by other providers, it is quite likely that the ColourCoats paint line is dead.
ColourCoats was picked up by Soveriegn before Dec 25th, when Tom’s announced picking up the resin and etch lines.
z15.invisionfree.com/…/index.php
so, you’ll be able to get some of the 25,000 remaining tins in the short term, and the line will be back some time after that
Rex
I have never heard of sovereign, what is the scuttlebutt on that company?
All I know is that they are in Scotland. I had never heard of them before this.
There is/was a Sovereign book series, I have their Phantom book,but, they were based in Australia, so, I don’t think there is any connection.
Rex