Hey guys, I have an aircraft diorama that I’m working on which involves an F4U-1D corsair and the TBF Avenger that it would protect. The decals that I have for the corsair are for the USS Wasp, Franklin and Hancock. Does anyone have or know of pictures of Avengers assigned to one of those carriers? I can’t find any decal sets for the avenger for any of them so I’m going to make them. So I need to know what they look like. Any help would be great. Thanks in advance.
Jason, I’m assuming that you have the geometric late war individual carrier designs for the vertical tails and starboard wings. The markings would be similar for the Avenger. It would have the same tail and wing markings as the Corsair. Most USN aircraft at the time would only show those markings and numbers, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to make something up. Do you have something more specific in mind? Mike
No, I just wanted to have aircraft that served on the same ship. That’s all. So for example, If I went with the Diagonal White stripe on the tail and stbd wing tip for the USS Hancock on the corsair, it would be the exact same thing for the Avenger? And also, is the number under the stripe on the tail a flight group designation, an individual one or is it the same number for the whole ship’s aircraft?
Yes, the white stripe would be the air group designator, and the same on all the aircraft from the Hancock airgroup. Any number would be for the individual aircraft. At the war’s beginning, the airgroup number, squadron numbers and the carrier’s hull numbers were the same. The Enterprise was CV 6, she flew airgroup 6 and the fighter squadron was VF-6, the torpedo squadron was VT-6, etc. Obviously, as the war progressed this couldn’t remain with airgroup and carrier losses. In 1944, as the tide turned and the Essex carriers joined the fight some type of designator had to be selected to identify all the planes from a single air group from the aircraft on the other carriers. They used arrows, diamonds all kinds of things. One thing you might consider. Avengers kept the 3 color paint scheme longer than the other aircraft. You could paint the Corsair in the overall gloss sea blue with the Avenger in the older flat sea blue, over intermediate blue, over white paint scheme for a little more variety. Just a thought. Mike
Thanks Mike,
I appreciate all the insight. It was very valuable. I’ll definitely do the original 3-tone paint scheme for the avenger. I like the idea of adding the variety in there. Now, with the overall gloss sea blue for the corsair, as time in the sun went on, the clear coat on all the upper sufaces of that paint would start to peel and fade like on a car, correct?
Paint didn’t usually have clear coats back then (on planes or cars). The planes were painted with standard lacquers. They would fade in the sun. The US Army’s olive drab was one of the worst for fading.
The Navy kept the air wing on deck most of the time (different from Japanese practice), but the tours of duty were fairly short. Often only six weeks to two months. After a tour, the squadron would be stood down and their aircraft would go to a rear area for a complete overhaul. Early in the war, the Navy didn’t have that luxury, so the planes looked more weather beaten, but by the time the all blue aircraft were arriving in the fleet, this practice was in full swing.
I read a story of a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm Corsair pilot who was sent ashore to an American rear base for some reason. He saw a sea of Corsairs which were in much better condition than his well worn FAA Corsair. He inquired about them and found out they were there for complete overhaul after a tour of duty and none of them had more than a couple hundred hours on them. The most beaten of the USN birds had 1/4 the hours of his Corsair. The crew chief was willing to trade Corsairs, but the British pilot decided that trying to explain how his Corsair turned blue would be too difficult to explain.
By late in the war, the Navy aircraft were quite pampered compared to other services. Of course keeping the engines and airframes fit gave the Navy fighter pilots a few percent extra power to catch the kamikazes.
Depending on the time frame of your diorama, the aircraft would either have the geometric figures on them, or they would have a two letter code. I believe the orders came down to switch to two letter codes to indicate carrier groups after January 1945, though some air groups were faster than others to switch over. The geometric shapes were in use for most of 1944.
Bill
So weathering on a '44 bird would be at a minimum. Got it. Did they get a new paint job every time they went in for overhaul? And would it be the same case for the avenger?
Jason, wd has a good point about weathering on the gloss blue birds. However there are plenty of photos that show white exhaust streaks along the fuselage sides of many glossy planes, so it is up to you and how much you want to show. A real weather beaten glossy plane would be more the exception than the rule. Letter tail codes replaced the geometric designs in July '45, so you’ll be OK with your stripes staying in '44. Have fun!
Oops, one thing about the Avenger. If you show the Avenger in the '43-44 tri-color scheme, it probably should show more weathering than the Corsair. Obviously, since there was a new paint scheme being adopted by the Navy, and you show one plane in the “older” scheme, it most likely could show more wear than the newer plane. You could even weather the Avenger, then apply the geometric stripe decals over some of the weathering showing they were a “new” addition to the TBM. Something to think about anyway.
Another thing is that semi-gloss and flat finishes will weather much quicker than a gloss finish will - that’s the main reason that most guys who have restored a Navy warbird have them painted in gloss rather than the origional flat finishes - the flat finish lasts about 1/4 as long - and with the price of the paint jobs on those things, the owners want the paint to look good for as long as possible (there are always other things on the plane that the money can be spent on)
I don’t know if they did. They may have. From the pictures I’ve seen of late war aircraft, there is some burning of the paint around the exhaust, but the majority of them look like the paint is fairly new.
Bill
So the avengers didn’t go in for overhauls as often as their escorts did?
Jason, Planes would be overhauled as needed, depending on current task force needs, etc. The Corsair was a late arrival to carrier decks because of landing gear oleo pressures, etc. Avengers were serving from Midway onward. Most of the F4Us that served in the tricolor scheme were based ashore on islands with USMC and some Navy units. By the time the landing pattern around carriers was modified for the Corsairs and full squadrons were assigned to the airgroups, the new birds would mostly, have appeared in the glossy paint. The Avengers could be in either color depending on length of time at sea, when they left the factory, etc. As mentioned above, the non-specular paints would weather more quickly, so even if the Avenger was a relatively new bird it could look more worn than a glossy Corsair. Mike
I am also building the Avenger in 1/48, using the tri color paint , reading everyones post here has really helped me. So Thanks for the info and keep up the good work. Also Jason please post some pics of your planes when they are done, I would like to see them.
It’ll take me a while. I’m doing this all as research beforehand. I’m still working on putting the blasted corsair together. What with all the other chores I have around the house while I’m on leave, I haven’t really progressed in the past couple days so it’s most likely going to be a little bit before you see pics of anything from me. I appreciate all the helpful insight and hope it turns out well thanks to your help.
Another question. I know I’m drawing this out a bit but by '44, did carriers already have the blacktop wood decks or were they still natural wood finished?