Ok guys the next WWII plane I am building is going to be Bud Anderson’s Old Crow P-51D.
I bought 4 bottles of Alclad II on sale at HobbyTown USA and wondered if a coat of gloss black as their website says is necessary or not?
Any tips on using it? It is going to be a while before I paint it but thought I would ask early. [:)]
A black base is only necessary for Chrome, Polished Aluminum, and one other color (I think). I do NOT like the Alclad black base paint, it doesn’t seem to cure. I’ve had it remain sticky and tacky feeling for several weeks. I finally just gave up on it and started using plain old Model Master gloss black enamel and it works fine. Some people like a coat of Future over it to give it a really smooth finish, but I haven’t had real good luck with that.
Two things I have noticed, although I freely admit that I’m nowhere near proficient with it:
First, lower pressure seems to work better. Like most metallics the pigments are rather large. Alclad recommends spraying at 12 psi but I have better luck at around 8. Spraying at a lower pressure allows me to pull the needle back farther for a given volume of paint, thus opening the nozzle a bit more. Play around and see what works best for you, but with my Omni 4000 around 8 works best for me. The paint is so thin it sprays easily, and at 12 psi I was barely cracking the needle open. At 8 psi I have to open it a good bit and it seems to spray a lot better.
Second, one coat seems to work best for me. Subsequent coats seem to dull the sheen slightly even if it is thoroughly cured. I try to get the entire coverage done with a single coat if I can and tat seems to work best for me.
The stuff is tough and I haven’t had any problems masking it or any problems with decal solutions. Decals to tend to look very thick on top of it, as with most metallics, so get them thinned down as much as you can.
Ditto on everything Scott said… I found for aluminum and those type colors, just plain future works best as a primer for me. I just wash the model, future it as if I was going to do a wash, let it cure then shoot the Alclad. But I know many who use the MM enamel with good results as well.
Be careful around wingroots and such. At a low pressure you shouldn’t have much problem with overspray, but once or twice I’ve had ‘metal filing’ looking paint on the fuselage side from it. If you spray straight down at the wing at low pressure, then switch and spray straight at the side, working toward the root the whole time you shouldn’t have any problems at all. If you do get the metal filings look, usually buffing them out with a paper towel is all that is needed.
After spraying I tend to hit ‘shine’ points on the body with a very dilute solution of future (diluted with Tamiya thinner). That is, areas I want to have a bit shinier to reflect the light better, as if the sun was hitting there. Just a very light mist is what I use and it blends into the surrounding paint well.
Good luck! It really is good stuff…
-=edit=-
If you get a dull area in the paint, don’t try to go back with more Alclad to try to get it even. Future over the dull area and then use the Alclad and it will shine just like the rest of the body. I have come to the conclusion that any dull spots I have had have been from a little too much paint applied there.
Thanks, Tom and Scott—I’m also an Alclad newbie!
Thanks guys.
The colors I bought last night are Duraluminum, Dark Aluminum, Magnesium and Steel.
At $5.89 a bottle I couldn’t pass them up. [;)]
I still fail to understand why I seem to be the only person who has had consistent success with Alclad II Black Base, especially since I’m not all that good a painter in the first place.
The only time it failed to cure was the first time I used it, and had I thinned it with lacquer thinner. Then I read the label on the Alclad bottle and discovered the paint contains MEK. Lacquer thinner and MEK do not play well together: they form a clear sludge percipitate when mixed. Now I thin the paint with MEK and it works wonderfully.
I use Mr Surfacer 1000 or 1500 under Alclad II metallics, except chrome and polished aluminum, which requre gloss black undercoat to provide the reflection.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce, you’re very close to correct—but I certain that it’s not MEK and laquer thinner that don’t play well together. It’s the binder (film forming portion) of the black Alclad primer and lacquer thinner that don’t play well together. That binder is only compatible with MEK (possibly acetone and other ketones, but not necessarily.)
Do you also clean your airbrush with MEK? I would recommend it.
Mike, you do not have to use the gloss black with any of the colors you listed. I have those you listed and they work fine over bare plastic.
To amend what someone else said, decals go down fine over Alclad but the company does not recommend using any setting solutions over the chrome or polished aluminum. I havent tried it to find out why.
Some advice.
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A little goes a long way and does it fast. Definately be gentle on the trigger or you’ll empty the cup in a flash.
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Like most NMF paints Alclad goes on very, very thin. Do your best during construction to protect the plastic from abrasions and cuts. Any putty work needs to be perfect or it will show through the Alclad in the form of a lump or valley. With the usually flat paints we use the most it’s easier to hide little imperfections under a heavy coat of paint, gloss coat, decals, gloss coat then flat coat. But the Alclad will betray you in a heartbeat if there is a speck of ameoba doo under it!
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If you use it over bare plastic GO VERY LIGHT. Being a laqcuer this stuff will waste styrene in a hurry. Trust me. Only one heavey handed blast left me wet sanding some gear doors once. What I do over bare plastic is dust it on, alternating paint on, paint off while keeping the airflow going just like I was still applying paint. The stuff dries very fast and can be imediately over coated. So I dust, blow, dust, blow. This allows the air blast to speed curing. In a couple of seconds dust again. After a couple of these coats then I hit it with a heavier coat without ill effects on the plastic.
As said before, the gloss black is not required under most all the Alclad paints but personally I prefer to use something as a primer. The idea is simply to fill in the pores of any putty and provide a uniform finish over the entire model for the Alclad to be applied to. I’ve found that the glossier the better for the final result and usually use a heavy coat of future as a base. Sometimes two or more. Enough to make the surface look like glass has worked real good for me. Best to let the Future dry for a couple of days before applying the Alclad.
As mentioned, once dry (in about ten minutes) the stuff is just about indestructable. Tape to your hearts content.
After your first time using it you’ll love it and wonder how you ever did a NMF without it.
Thanks Shooter and everyone else.
Is the Duraluminum or Dark Aluminum good choices for a P-51?
Mike, I guess like everything else it depends on the time for which you are building the model. Fresh from the factory they would probably be closer to “Polished Aluminum” but after a few days (or weeks or months) of use your color choices would probably be dead on. All of the restored Mustangs we see now are, obviously, cleaned up for show purposes and don’t reflect actual war-time use. I think that any shade you pick will be right for some period during the plane’s life.
Duraluminum was a common material used by the Brits during WWII for airplane skin. Dark Aluminum most likely depicts oxidized aluminum, and bare aluminum does oxidize quite quickly, especially when exposed to oil, gas, bullets, and smoke. Decide what era of the plane’s life you want to depict and then go with that. As long as it’s NMF I don’t think you could go far wrong.
What Scott said[^]
I typically use Aluminum, do a couple of random panels on the fuse with dark aluminum, weather and then flat coat. The end result is not to bright and not beat all to haites and back. The panels around the exhaust are a good place for dark aluminum.
My thought exactly Mike (the area under the cowl flaps)… in your pics of the B-17 in the aircraft topic you have one of a B-17 engine… the engine cowl and nacelle would be closer to duraluminium or plain aluminum (they are hard to tell apart when using both) the dark area under the flaps looks dead on for dark aluminum, maybe a ‘tad’ darker than the paint…
Thanks guys.
Your help is always appreciated. [;)]
Hi, Ross
I can’t speak on the chemistry of the binder, but I have mixed MEK and lacquer thinner in a small glass container and watched the sludge form. It looks like a clear percipitate, though it doesn’t exactly form a solid mass at the bottom like a true percipitate. It’s a nasty substance, though, and not good for much except gumming things up.
I’ve also noticed that not all the Alcald 2 labels list the same ingredients. It doesn’t matter much with the metallics, because they’re not supposed to be thinned anyway, and cleanup with MEK seems to work for all of them. I’ve noticed that some of them attack uncured enamel undercoats worse than others.
Yes, I clean my brushes with MEK when using Alclad paints. I haven’t noticed any degradation of the seals, though if I don’t wear a good respirator and have adequate ventilation I’m sure I’d notice degradation of my lungs. I use a shot-sized measuring glass, and try not to use more than one shot per session, unless I’m changing colors a lot.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce, that is truely odd. On reading your post, I went and mixed equal arts of my laquer thinner and MEK. They just sat there, looking at me expectantly—clear as pure water. They’ve been that way for half an hour.
Checking the label on my can of Ace lacquer thinner, MEK is listed as the second ingredient. If the label on yours lists ingredients, please post them.
How old are your cans of MEK and laquer thinner?
Is there any chance of contamination of either? (This is the easiest explanation of your results.) Do you use either as a solvent cement?
[%-)][%-)][%-)][%-)][%-)] and [%-)]
Ross,
When I get home from work this evening I’ll check all this out and re-try the mix experiment. I’m posting this at 3:16 pm Mountain Standard Time from Phoenix, AZ, USA. Arizona does not observe daylight saving time.
Regards,
Bruce
Ross,
It’s 8:00 pm Phoenix time, and here I sit staring at a shot-sized measuring glass filled with a perfectly clear mixture of MEK and lacquer thinner, looking at me expectantly. So either there was some contamination that other time, or a different set of ingredients. I stand corrected. I’ve read too many of your other posts not to defer to your knowledge of chemistry.
However, getting a sludge finish from Alclad 2 Gloss Black Base mixed with hardware-store lacquer thinner remains as an unfortunate learning experience. So for whatever reason, MEK still works, and since that recipe works I’m staying with it.
By the way, all you guys: don’t forget the stainless steel around exhaust and other high-heat areas on radial engine nacelles and cowls.
Regards,
Bruce
Perhaps the most important thing to note, here, is that not all “lacquer thinner” is necessarily the same. It is a blend of various solvents, and that blend may vary from one manufacturer to the next.
I suspect that the drying problems reported by many with the Alclad II gloss black primer are related to solvent-resin incompatibility between the Alclad resin and one or more of the solvents in some lacquer thinners.
I don’t have any of the Alclad gloss black primer, so I cannot investigate this further. After reading about the problems people were having with it, I decided to use one of the alternatives.
I am now glad I have a gallon of MEK in the basement. I can use it to clean the airbrush after using Alclad. So your “unfortunate learning experience” has benefited us all. [:D]
Ross,
I took half of a failed 1/48 P-51D and primered it with Mr. Surfacer 1000. I then divided it into sections, leaving one section the exposed primer, and painted the rest in the following gloss black undercoats:
Model Master Gloss Black Acryl
Model Master Gloss Black Enamel
Tamiya Gloss Black rattle can Lacquer
Scalecoat I Loco Black (with Scalecoat drying agent)*
Alclad 2 Gloss Black Base
All were allowed to cure for several days, then I shot Alclad 2 Polished Aluminum over the whole piece. They all worked, though there appear to be subtle tinting differences. I have the 4 oz bottle of Alclad base, and I use it because it’s a bit less prep than the others and I want to get my money’s worth before it reaches the end of its shelf life. But in my limited experience, any cured gloss black undercoat will do. The Mr. Surfacer section lacks the depth of reflection you get from the gloss black undercoat, and looks just like any other aluminum paint. Further tests have shown if you polish the black base before shooting the high gloss (chrome, polished aluminum) you’ll get even better results.
One other trick that gives very pleasing results: I polish the oleo pistons on landing gear struts, undercoat them in gloss black, and spray them chrome. Then I mask the oleo and spray the rest of the strut the appropriate color, and the results look very realistic.
*Scalecoat are model railroad lacquers. They are very high quality, though lacking in military colors. Scalecoat I is actually for brass: it’s hot (use a barrier of some kind), and either you have to bake it or add their dryer to it. Scalecoat II has drying agents and can be used on plastic, though I think it’s also a bit hot and would probably work best over a barrier. It surely does yield a smooth glossy finish, though, and is probably my second choice from the five listed above.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce,
Thanks for the research and info—much appreciated, and I’m sure by others as well.
I do have a question that I don’t recall seeing the answer for in several discussions of this topic:
Does the black gloss undercoat for Alcad II need to be an enamel or lacquer, or will a fully cured acrylic work? Has anyone tried this?